Artillery Opinion

[ratdog]

How does this one look?
http://gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=9010983

Note: this topic was moved by Admin to the Artillery Forum from the Military P08 Forum

[John Sabato]

Caveat: I want to preface my remarks by emphasizing that I do not know the seller of this item...I have not seen anything but the photographs of this Artillery Luger and my opinion is based on the photographic evidence ...with that said... here is my opinion of what I see illustrated in several photographs that I have cropped and adjusted the contrast and on which I have corrected the color balance.

My opinion is based on reviewing literally hundreds (and perhaps thousands) of photographs of serial numbers on Lugers, especially artillery models... and also on my years of metal fabrication, manufacturing and gunsmith experiences.

The seller mentions in the auction that this rig was purchased by him from Simpson's and I have no way of knowing if this is true... and I have never heard any derogatory antecdotal information regarding this dealer. To the best of my knowledge, this dealer sells only righteous merchandise...

Photograph A - In this photograph I see file marks that are not typical of the finish normally seen on the stock attachment iron. The blue in the file scratches does not match the even finish of the blue where there are no scratches. (See the negative image of Photo A)

I also see the ghosts of previous numbers... They are not clear enough to completely make them out, but it is obvious to me that the original numbers were ground down somewhat and then stamped over. The number stamps that were used, while matching the number set used on the magazine bottom (Photo E) do not match the number font that is used on the pistol... Each of the number "3" on the pistol could be described as rounded in appearance but the numbers on the stock and the mag bottom are flat-topped. IMHO these numbers should match the font used on the pistol itself.



Negative of Photo A with details



Photographs B, C, D, & F ---As mentioned for Photograph A, All of the number "3" on the pistol could be described as rounded in appearance ...the numbers on the pistol appear to be genuine based on this observation... however the front of the grip frame is not clearly visible in any of the auction photographs ( Especially not in Photo F)... so the number on the front of the frame cannot be grouped into this opinion, and no comparison of the letter "g" on the stock can be compared to the grip frame for like qualities. The number "2" in all places on the pistol appears to be flat bottomed with an upward rising serif or tail... the number "2" on the stock is not of the same font.

Photo B



Photo C



Photo D



Photo E - It is my opinion that this magazine bottom was numbered by someone other than the original manufacturer...



Photo F



Well, that is it... IMHO this Luger does NOT match the magazine or the stock.

I won't venture an opinion on the market value of this rig... other than to say it is a nice looking Artillery Luger Pistol and I wouldn't mind having it... but the value in my opinion could not be based on the premise that this is an all matching set of equipment... I invite others to comment on the Luger rig in question and my opinions...

[lugerholsterrepair]

John, Excellent eye for detail! I looked this rig over several days ago and noticed that the numbers on the stock iron were put on with an awfully heavy strike. Looks to have dented the iron. Could be the grinding of the previous numbers weakened it. Very nice analysis John...I am surprised if this is actually coming out of Bob Simpsons shop and is claimed to be a matching original rig. Jerry Burney

[John Sabato]

Jerry,

Thanks...The seller indicated he bought it from Simpson a year ago... but there is no way to confirm that without getting Simpson himself involved... I would just caution Lugerforum members to be wary of this rig "as advertised"... and would encourage any member who would want to bid to draw attention via email with the seller to the details that I have pointed out here before bidding and see what the response is.

I just added a Negative image of Photo A to the original post showing the details on which I based my opinion pretty dramatically...

[George Anderson]

Boys, I took a minute to compare irons to pistols on a few of my LP08's with matching stock irons. 1914 Erfurt, 1914 DWM, 1915,1916&1917. The 1914 Erfurt, 1915 and 1917 I can certify are 100%. The two DWM's have SN's that include the rounded numeral 3. In both cases the stock iron is identical and includes the suffix. The Erfurt may have been made with a different die and does not include the suffix. It may be that Erfurt did not make irons and the pieces were joined-up prior to issue. There is no proof on the iron and we all know the government employees at Erfurt were bongos for proofs. The DWM 1914 and 1916 do not match their irons as far as size goes but the two irons are a perfect match to each other - they are conterfeits sold to me by a very well known Luger Dealer west of the Pecos.

Does anyone out there know of an Erfurt proofed iron?

[John Sabato]

George,

Perhaps Mauro Baudino's new book on LP-08's has some details on Erfurt production of stocks and stock irons.

I am waiting for my copy of the book to arrive.

[mauro]

Hello guys,
I will ask information on stocks and stock irons to a friend of mine that is very expert on this topic. He has discovered several fake rigs.
I will let you know.
Ciao

[Frank]

Good analysis guys! The stock is obviously from a G-Block Luger. The Magazine is from a NS-Block Luger and I believe the pistol is a NS-Block as well, although it's difficult to tell.

[John Sabato]

Grazie tante Mauro...

allora... noi aspettiamo!

[Dwight Gruber]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by George Anderson:
<strong>Does anyone out there know of an Erfurt proofed iron?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">The 1910/1914 P-08 marking regulations make no mention of acceptance stamp requirements on stock irons. That being the case, I speculate that Erfurt would not have stamped them.

OTOH, there are stamps on the stock wood. I find no mention of these, either (G�¶rtz & Bryans), but they were marked for -some- reason...

--Dwight

[Lugerdoc]

The numbering of the stock lug and magazine appear to be Waffenfabrik Texas additions. TH

[ratdog]

I wrote to the seller about the # discrepancies, and he says that the seller to him is one of the most reputable Luger dealers and he has enough Lugers to say the numbering is correct. I felt it wasn't right to print his reply (legal and such).

[Navy]

The pistol SN, Lug SN and Mag have been cranked. The mag stamping is not the correct font for the era and the stamp is much, much too sharp and deep. I'd guess that Tom H. is on the right track.

Tom A.

[mauro]

I asked my friend, an excellent Luger renovator, his opinion concerning the rig. He states that both the stock iron and magazine bottom numbers are faked. Besides this job has been performed in coarse way.

I hope this helps.
Ciao.
Mauro

[ratdog]

Well, the gun sold!!!

[Edward Tinker]

I bet not to anyone on the forum that read this? And if they did, at least they knew what they were getting into?

Ed

[MG]

I know this is an old topic but... Does any one think that the buyer should be sent/e-mail this forum and let him or her decide if they got cheated? I just hate to think that someone was taken by this fake and not know about it. Goes against my ethics I guess... or just let it go?

Just my two cents...

Michael

[Edward Tinker]

Michael... No

I am sure others would say yes, but to me, if they bought and were willing to pay that kind of money, either they wanted it bad, or did not know enough. And it could be one of the following;

1. You could embarrass them

2. You could make them mad

3. They should be well read enough before spending or bidding on items...

There was a discussion on the Banzai forum, where a guy got a sling for a really good price, several people e-mailed the seller and said, hey dude you're being ripped off, it is worth a lot more than that! And the seller refused to sell the item.

So, I think it is one of those things to stay out of, and yes, I hate to see someone get ripped off too.

my 4.5 cents,

Ed

[Big Norm]

Under the serial number of my Erfurt rig there is a tiny crown on the metal with a tiny "RC" under that.
Big Norm

[Ron Wood]

Nobody asked, but here is my 2�¢.

The rig is not all original as advertised, and pointed out very well by very observant and knowledgeable individuals on this forum. The winner paid too much, BUT he/she got a heckuva nice rig that is all period stuff, no repro. Yes, it has been cranked...what a pity because it would have been worth having, even mismatched. It is unfortunate that it was represented as original and unaltered, that is a no-no and honest folk should not do that.

On the flip side, if you can believe the seller, he took over a $600 hit on the sale of the piece. That would lead me to believe he/she knew it was somewhat bogus. For that knowledge, he took it in the shorts for his lack of vigilance.

The buyer may or may not have observed the discrepancies, but if he/she did, he chose to go ahead and purchase some pretty good stuff that is hard to come by. If he didnâ??t, at worst he has a rig that may not come around again in the near future for the same price. Who knows when and by whom the changes were made? Were they an attempt to defraud by a recent owner or a long ago modification?

Collecting has taken a sorry turn, prompted by the fakers and opportunistic individuals that prey on the less informed. Everything is suspect; therefore marginal accessions are either passed up, or subject to ridicule.

In this case, IMHO I would think that the cumulative worth of the items sold would be in the neighborhood of at least $2900. That means that the buyer may have dumped about $300 excess into the purchase, and the original purchaser is embarrassed to the tune of a few hundred bucks more. In a couple of years, or less, this figure will be of no consequence and the new owner will have the joy of owning a better than average rig and if he chooses to sell (hopefully disclosing the obvious alterations pointed out in this thread), should suffer no loss.

This forum serves as a sounding board for all manner of topics. If newcomers to the hobby pay attention to the information presented, and take the time to go back and review what has been posted before they joined the forum, lots of costly mistakes will be avoided. Also, if there are any lessons to be learned, they are do your homework, read everything you can get your hands on, and ask twice before buying once. This is an annoyance to sellers, but if they have an honest product at an honest price, a straightforward answer should make this a brief process.

Sorry about the soapbox, but there are very few virgin Lugers out there and I for one am tired of the need to justify every single nuance of a purchase when the sheer joy of having something that is close to a reasonable price and close to being 100% authentic is overlooked. Donâ??t pay too much for junk, but donâ??t pass up something that is less than perfect at a reasonable priceâ?¦you may not get another chance. And if you do get stung, that's life...it has happened to a lot of us. Learn from your mistakes and try not to let it happen again.