.30 luger vs .32 or 380?

03-14-2002, 08:59 PM

There is a .30 cal barrel & receiver on auction arms for sale, look pretty good. (C&R, page 5)Made me think, why were the commercial lugers made in .30 luger instead of the other calibers referenced? There is also a Japanese (Hamada?) semi that's up to $3700. Never saw one of those. If I would have I would have passed it up.

Roadkill

03-14-2002, 09:10 PM

The 7,65x19 [Parabellum] came first...a hot round in it's day. The 7,65x17 [.32 ] and 9x17 [.380] were Browning designed rounds [whimpy low pressure] for straight blowback pistols [unlocked breech].

The low powered rounds have never been considered adequate for military purposes. [except by the Czechs with their CZ-38]

When the military wanted a bigger projectile,[1907] they [DWM] just straightened out the 7,65 case and invented the 9x19!

The Shadow Knows!

Dok · 03-14-2002, 09:17 PM

Also after WWI the Treaty of Versailles stipulated that "military" weapons were not to be produced, and as most military weapons were 9mm by that time, commercial Lugers were made in 7.65mm to conform to the treaty requirements.

Dok

Thor · 03-14-2002, 10:23 PM

Actually, isnt the 30 Luger case slightly longer than the 9 mm Luger case? Like 21 or 22 mm (30) instead of 19 (9)??? Thor

HÃ?Â¥kan Spuhr · 03-15-2002, 12:37 AM

Yes it is, just slightly above 21 mm.

And by the way the 9x19 is not from 1907 as the nave adopted their first luger 1904 and it was a 9mm......

Regards HÃ?Â¥kan

http://vapensmedjan.com

BILL · 03-15-2002, 12:48 AM

The .3O Luger came before the nine mm..so it must not have been intended for military purposes, right? If that is the case then I wonder what the round was actually developed for? There has been a lot of discussion about this in the past and I was just thinking of it this morning..what did someone have in mind when they developed the .30 Luger, just something that would autoload?

Thor · 03-15-2002, 01:37 AM

Just an WAG here Bill, but perhaps the 30 Luger wasnt really designed for war, but followed the sucess story of the 30 Mauser cartridge designed for the Broomhandle C96 Mauser Pistol. The 30 Luger was also similar to the 7.63 Borchardt round? Perhaps downloaded version of these. The Germans for a long time had thought the PP in 32 Browing (ACP) was an adequate Police round while the Americans thought nothing less than the 45 would do (except the early 38s which didnt do that well) Of course DWM found out the major concern of most of the countries was that the Luger chambering was just to small for a military round, hence the stop gap last minute 9mm rendering of the 7.65 parabellum round and the most manufactured center fire round was born. If the World Wars had not happened just think how many 45 Lugers would be around. Just some random rabblings from the Thordude!

03-15-2002, 07:27 AM

Haken, The earliest use of the 9mm Parabellum was in the 1902 Fat Barrel luger.

03-15-2002, 07:37 AM

Considering the successful autoloading rounds that preceded it, the 7.65 Mauser for the C96 pistol and the 7.65 Borchardt for the C93, the 7.65 Luger was necessitated by Georg Luger's inovation of the recoil spring in the grip. One of these longer rounds would have made for a very large grip and the luger would not be the comfortable nice pointing pistol that we love today. Tom

03-15-2002, 02:32 PM

Just an unsubstantiated opinion, but there were probably more overall .32 pistols in Germany WWII (Brownings,Femarus,Berettas PPs,ect) than were in 9mm. (P08,BHP,Radom,Astra,P38,&Star). Well maybe not. My point was that the .32 was definite use firearm in the Wehrmacht. Underpowered for combat, yes. Used yes. Wonder if it was ever considered for the P08?

Roadkill

03-16-2002, 08:53 AM

G.T. · 03-16-2002, 09:10 AM

Ron Wood · 03-16-2002, 09:56 AM

Thor · 03-16-2002, 10:12 AM

Yes, I agree with Ron, the G&A article I have on it talked about a small problem with them, because it was made to orginal specs, the lock breech caused it to be fired with a hot 32 and one of the people recommended GECO ammo. If that was my gun and I wanted to fire it, I would do the hand loading test, load some std pressure stuff and see where the toggle ended up (locked or not) and then bump up the charge a .1 of a grain or so then fire five more until I reached the "sweet spot" (just enough OOOOMPH) to work the action. ~THor~

03-14-2002, 08:59 PM	#1
R. Grady/Roadkill Guest Posts: n/a	.30 luger vs .32 or 380? There is a .30 cal barrel & receiver on auction arms for sale, look pretty good. (C&R, page 5)Made me think, why were the commercial lugers made in .30 luger instead of the other calibers referenced? There is also a Japanese (Hamada?) semi that's up to $3700. Never saw one of those. If I would have I would have passed it up. Roadkill

03-14-2002, 09:10 PM	#2
The Shadow Guest Posts: n/a	30 luger vs .32 or 380? The 7,65x19 [Parabellum] came first...a hot round in it's day. The 7,65x17 [.32 ] and 9x17 [.380] were Browning designed rounds [whimpy low pressure] for straight blowback pistols [unlocked breech]. The low powered rounds have never been considered adequate for military purposes. [except by the Czechs with their CZ-38] When the military wanted a bigger projectile,[1907] they [DWM] just straightened out the 7,65 case and invented the 9x19! The Shadow Knows!

03-14-2002, 09:17 PM	#3
Dok RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Bermuda (Eat Your Heart Out) Posts: 1,626 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Re: .30 luger vs .32 or 380? Also after WWI the Treaty of Versailles stipulated that "military" weapons were not to be produced, and as most military weapons were 9mm by that time, commercial Lugers were made in 7.65mm to conform to the treaty requirements. Dok

03-14-2002, 10:23 PM	#4
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Re: 30 luger vs .32 or 380? Actually, isnt the 30 Luger case slightly longer than the 9 mm Luger case? Like 21 or 22 mm (30) instead of 19 (9)??? Thor

03-15-2002, 12:37 AM	#5
HÃ?Â¥kan Spuhr User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Sweden Posts: 282 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: 30 luger vs .32 or 380? Yes it is, just slightly above 21 mm. And by the way the 9x19 is not from 1907 as the nave adopted their first luger 1904 and it was a 9mm...... Regards HÃ?Â¥kan http://vapensmedjan.com

03-15-2002, 12:48 AM	#6
BILL User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Western Washington Posts: 826 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: .30 luger vs .32 or 380? The .3O Luger came before the nine mm..so it must not have been intended for military purposes, right? If that is the case then I wonder what the round was actually developed for? There has been a lot of discussion about this in the past and I was just thinking of it this morning..what did someone have in mind when they developed the .30 Luger, just something that would autoload?

03-15-2002, 01:37 AM	#7
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Re: .30 luger vs .32 or 380? Just an WAG here Bill, but perhaps the 30 Luger wasnt really designed for war, but followed the sucess story of the 30 Mauser cartridge designed for the Broomhandle C96 Mauser Pistol. The 30 Luger was also similar to the 7.63 Borchardt round? Perhaps downloaded version of these. The Germans for a long time had thought the PP in 32 Browing (ACP) was an adequate Police round while the Americans thought nothing less than the 45 would do (except the early 38s which didnt do that well) Of course DWM found out the major concern of most of the countries was that the Luger chambering was just to small for a military round, hence the stop gap last minute 9mm rendering of the 7.65 parabellum round and the most manufactured center fire round was born. If the World Wars had not happened just think how many 45 Lugers would be around. Just some random rabblings from the Thordude!

03-15-2002, 07:27 AM	#8
tom h Guest Posts: n/a	Re: First use of 9mmP Haken, The earliest use of the 9mm Parabellum was in the 1902 Fat Barrel luger.

03-15-2002, 07:37 AM	#9
tom h Guest Posts: n/a	Re: .30 luger linage Considering the successful autoloading rounds that preceded it, the 7.65 Mauser for the C96 pistol and the 7.65 Borchardt for the C93, the 7.65 Luger was necessitated by Georg Luger's inovation of the recoil spring in the grip. One of these longer rounds would have made for a very large grip and the luger would not be the comfortable nice pointing pistol that we love today. Tom

03-15-2002, 02:32 PM	#10
R. Grady/Roadkill Guest Posts: n/a	Re: .30 luger linage Just an unsubstantiated opinion, but there were probably more overall .32 pistols in Germany WWII (Brownings,Femarus,Berettas PPs,ect) than were in 9mm. (P08,BHP,Radom,Astra,P38,&Star). Well maybe not. My point was that the .32 was definite use firearm in the Wehrmacht. Underpowered for combat, yes. Used yes. Wonder if it was ever considered for the P08? Roadkill

03-16-2002, 08:53 AM	#11
S. Lempitski Guest Posts: n/a	Wasn't the "baby" luger a .32? (EOM)

03-16-2002, 09:10 AM	#12
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,486 Thanks: 1,283 Thanked 3,583 Times in 989 Posts	I think so?? Was it a locked breech or blow back??? (EOM)

03-16-2002, 09:56 AM	#13
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,097 Times in 1,676 Posts	Locked Breech - i.e. same toggle action as standard (EOM)

03-16-2002, 10:12 AM	#14
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Re: Locked Breech - i.e. same toggle action as standard Yes, I agree with Ron, the G&A article I have on it talked about a small problem with them, because it was made to orginal specs, the lock breech caused it to be fired with a hot 32 and one of the people recommended GECO ammo. If that was my gun and I wanted to fire it, I would do the hand loading test, load some std pressure stuff and see where the toggle ended up (locked or not) and then bump up the charge a .1 of a grain or so then fire five more until I reached the "sweet spot" (just enough OOOOMPH) to work the action. ~THor~