Please identify the unit!

[Hugh]

Front grip strap mark on a 1920/1914 Erfurt SN 113a: It looks like the "2" has been stamped over a "7"!

[Dwight Gruber]

Hugh,

It looks like a very non-regulation Schutspolizei Berlin stamp. And you know that Don Maus is going to want -all- the gun details!

--Dwight

[Don M]

Damn right! Particulary whether it has/had sear or mag safeties and whether there is evidence of any other grip strap markings.

[Ron Smith]

Hugh,

That's a very unique marking. Will interested to hear more about the pistol.

Ron

[Edward Tinker]

Where is it located on the inside or outside of the gripstrap?

Ed

[Hugh]

Ed,
The outside is the rounded part and the inside is the un-rounded part.

[Hugh]

Don,

No evidence of other markings. It does not and has not had either sear or mag safetys installed. The gun has very little original finish left, but is not rusted or pitted. It has all matching parts including the grips, EXCEPT the Erfurt toggle train is unnumbered and the wooden bottom mag is unnumbered, and one grip screw is not Erfurt proofed. It has the "arty" notch on the front of the receiver.

[Don M]

Hugh,

OK, here goes with my best guesses!

Dwight's right (I love how that sounds) about it being a non-reg Berlin Schupo mark. I have never seen one stamped this way.

If oriented correctly, it would be S.B.1.I.2.44. As you note, the Hundertschaft/Berietschaft (riot squad) number 2 overstamps an earlier one, probably 7. Apparently the pistol was transferred between two riot squads.

The 1 in the mark is the same size as the I (4.2 mm) and occupies the position normally containing an abbreviation for the Gruppe (No., S., O., etc.). This is the fourth instance of this I have seen. Here's links to the two others: http://www.gunboards.com/luger/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5453 and http://www.gunboards.com/luger/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3105. As I explain in those posts, I believe these marks were made sometime before the April 1922 marking orders were issued and I speculate that a 1 in this position represents Gruppe West. If correct, this pistol and the holster in the first link were both from the Charlottenburg Inspectorate (W.I).

Sometime between 1922 and 1932, the marking format for the Schupo was simplified. For Berlin, it became just S.B.xxxxx. I'm beginning to believe this change occurred closer to 1922 than 1932. Guns that remained in Berlin were re-marked, accordingly. That your gun does not have the newer mark and does not have sear or mag safeties suggests it was transferred out of Berlin and probably not to a police unit. The similarly marked holster has clear evidence it was transferred to the Schupo in the Merseberg district.

I also note that the S.B. in your mark is a bit larger than normal (about 5 mm versus the specified 4.2 mm). Don't really have anything to suggest about this.

I hope this is of some help. My article in Auto Mag will provide more info on these marks.

Do you live anywhere near Houston? I would love to see this mark in person.

[Hugh]

Don,

Yes, I am near Houston--about 50 mi. I live in Devers, which is between Liberty and Beaumont on hiway 90. Be happy to show it to you anytime. You can email me at hhclark@academicplanet.com

[Don M]

Hugh,

Great! I'm pretty swamped right now but will try to get to see you before the year's out. Don't sell the gun!

[Hugh]

Hey, you guys did so well on that one, I have a few more for you!

P. D. 4. on a 1920/1918 DWM #7758i, has sear safety but no mag safety.

S. G. I. 290 on a 1920/1918 DWM #3171a, doesn't have either police safetys. I think this is Gumbinnen District 1 weapon 290, is this correct?

Don, not to worry, I very seldom sell a gun once I get my grubby paws on it!

[Don M]

Hugh,

P.D.4. is an unknown mark, possibly Polizei Direktion. I have P.D.18. and P.D.471. in my database. Here's a discussion about the latter: http://www.gunboards.com/luger/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1844

I believe you're correct about S.G.I.290 being from the Gumbinnen District. Gumbinnen was the easternmost district in Weimar Prussia and was deep within the Soviet zone after WWII. Yours is the only example of a Schupo mark from there that I know of. I only have one Landj�¤gerei mark from that district.

Could you post photos of both marks? I would sure like to see them.

[Hugh]

Here are pictures of the two marks mentioned in my previous post. I have also added two more for discussion! Unfortunately the last two are mixed number guns with the cannons having different SN's than the frames, so I don't know the dates they were made.




I believe this is Police Schleswig District 2 weapon #236. On a DWM frame.


I don't think that this one is a police mark. I believe it to be either Luftschiffer-Abteilung (Airship or balloon) number 7, weapon #4 or Field Artillery, Battery 7, weapon #4. This is on an Erfurt frame without a stock lug. Anyone have thoughts on this one?

[Don M]

Hugh,

Thanks very much for posting photos of your police grip strap marks. Are there any more in your collection?

The Gumbinnen and Schleswig marks show evidence of earlier marks that were ground off. The earlier marks may have been in conformance with the 1922 orders and contained numbers for the Hundertschaft/Berietschaft (riot squad) to which they were assigned. Presumably, at the same time the Berlin marking format was changed, the format for all other Prussian Schupo was simplified to eliminate this designation.

I really don't know what the L.A. mark is. I am confident that it is not a Landj�¤gerei mark because the Landj�¤gerei did not include anything other than the administrative district and the weapon number. Does the pistol have a sear or mag safety? Here's a link to a similar mark: http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...threadid=11894

I would appreciate knowing the serial numbers of the latter two (frame s/n for the Sch). If you prefer, you may email me at donmaus1@aol.com.