Prototype's dies - Page 3

MauserLugers · 08-22-2005, 08:05 PM

No, I did not know about the 25 Walther of your father's, nor thousands of other GI bringbacks directly. My father was in WW2 as were two of my uncles and all have passed away now. I take it though, that your father's 25 was not a "one of a kind", extremely high dollar pistol, nor were the bring backs from my father or his brothers. Most of my relatives stuff was actually in the 85 to 90% condition. As I stated earlier, I do not know if your Luger is correct or not as Mausers are my field of collecting, but what I do know is mint Lugers are extremely hard to find. I just find it very interesting and yes, suspicious, that in the last couple of years two one of a kind Lugers have surfaced out of the blue, with no one ever hearing about them, in mint condition, with no history or trail. Since condition dictates price, it is interesting to me that both of these are in such grand condition. I'm personally not buying the explanation of the GI had it stuck away all this time, and no one ever heard or looked at it, but it really doesn't matter what I think, so convincing me is not one of your top priorities. Actually I hope it is correct, but I am suspicious. Lets face it, in todays collecting field you have to question every piece you see because so many have been messed with, and remember the stories, every Luger was taken directly off an officier, or better yet, an SS officier. --- Bill

pipeman45 · 08-24-2005, 02:23 AM

As I am as far from an expert as one can get on these rare Lugers all I can say is. Lets all hold back and wait for what one of the true ones has to say about this pistol. And I also have to say that I too think a lot of interesting, unknown guns will surface in the next few years. To most GI's a Luger was just about the best trophy you could get your hands on. But few were collectors then or later in life. So some rare pieces were put away with the medals and forgotten. The young boys that gave so much to keep us free are nearing the end, and these pieces will once again see the light of day.

drbuster · 08-24-2005, 08:59 AM

I am told that both Charles Kenyon and Tom Armstrong will soon be seeing and examing this controversial Luger. I hope that one or both of them will enlighten all of us with their respected opinions.

surlydog · 08-24-2005, 06:06 PM

To Pipeman45 Amen to your comments about the men that brought these guns back..My dad was a combat MP in the Bulge and told me more then once about collecting weapons and having a tank drive back and forth over them ..military as well as sporting met the tank..He did ship home a drilling though. I am also reminded of hies telling of gun pits hidden in the woods. Seems the Germans planed to slip back behind the lines and recover them. He said in a couple pits he assisted opening there were a few hand guns mostly rifles and oddly the same number of machine guns in various models..I have wondered at times, if all those pits were found..we can always at least daydream about it. Again thanks for your comments...Harry P.S. Mr Kenyon is supposed to conect with me fri or sat. on his return from D.C...I am looking foreward to meeting the man..

Jan C Still · 09-10-2005, 10:32 PM

Harry
It is my understanding that Kenyon has examined the presentation Navy Luger under discussion. Please report the results of his examination. Members of both Forums examined your photographs and spent some time answering your questions. I am sure the members of both Forums are interested.
Jan

Ron Smith · 09-11-2005, 09:32 AM

I have a question. Would'nt someone know if von Tirpitz' estate was still standing or destroyed by the Allies. Seems to me that, that would be a memorable occurance. And something that would be documented or at least remembered. If it wasn't destroyed by demolition squad or even by the Allies. It would seem that if the story is hinky, then the pistols authenticity would be very doubtful. Just a thought.

Also, if there was a "vault"? Was the pistol the only contents? Seems as though there would be a complete rig, presentation case, holster,tool, etc. As well as other valuable articles.

Ron

drbuster · 09-11-2005, 10:14 AM

Ron, Please check your PM's.

c3006 · 09-16-2005, 04:07 AM

Man this is like the tape breaking near the end of a good John Wayne movie.

MauserLugers · 09-16-2005, 03:28 PM

So what has been found out about this pistol? Since nothing has been shared it would appear that the news was not good? What's the story? --- Bill

Pete Ebbink · 10-05-2005, 10:51 AM

Bill,

Switch to the "Gunshow" section and look for a thread started by Geo. Anderson titled "I've See The Elephant"...

Pete Ebbink · 10-09-2005, 12:35 PM

I have borrowed this photo from Jan's Gun Boards site...

I thought I read somewhere in John Walter's book that the "c" on presentation pieces was used only on carbine models. If this is true, it does not appear correct on a Navy piece...???

Text Added by Pete : "The Luger Story" by John Walter, page 102, last 2 paragraphs along the page. I might be wrong, here...but didn't the German's spell carbine with a "k"...???

Ron Smith · 10-09-2005, 03:44 PM

Should this pistol even have a stock lug? Unless it is made on a carbine frame.

drbuster · 10-09-2005, 05:41 PM

Ron, I guess the frame would have to have come from a 1902 carbine as the stock lug looks very much a part of the frame and doesn't show any photo evidence of being welded on. Also, if I recollect correctly, the 1902 carbines that I have been fortunate to examine personally, all have had the full thickness grip safety and third type safety lever. These findings on the AvT Luger make one wonder why a fabricator in Waffenfabrik USA would have gone to all the trouble to find a second type safety lever and narrow grip safety to put on it, or was it just an attempt to confuse? Just taking a re-look at the photos of this piece make one marvel at how well it appears to be made and finished. I find it very hard to question the wisdom and experience of Charles Kenyon, but I would love to see in writing what there was about this piece to make him feel it was not an original presentation piece.

Ron Wood · 10-10-2005, 12:36 AM

Quote:

I would love to see in writing what there was about this piece to make him feel it was not an original presentation piece

Me too.

08-24-2005, 02:23 AM	#42
pipeman45 User Join Date: May 2004 Location: Kentucky Posts: 539 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	As I am as far from an expert as one can get on these rare Lugers all I can say is. Lets all hold back and wait for what one of the true ones has to say about this pistol. And I also have to say that I too think a lot of interesting, unknown guns will surface in the next few years. To most GI's a Luger was just about the best trophy you could get your hands on. But few were collectors then or later in life. So some rare pieces were put away with the medals and forgotten. The young boys that gave so much to keep us free are nearing the end, and these pieces will once again see the light of day. __________________ Dave

08-24-2005, 06:06 PM	#44
surlydog User Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: south carolina Posts: 14 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	To Pipeman45 Amen to your comments about the men that brought these guns back..My dad was a combat MP in the Bulge and told me more then once about collecting weapons and having a tank drive back and forth over them ..military as well as sporting met the tank..He did ship home a drilling though. I am also reminded of hies telling of gun pits hidden in the woods. Seems the Germans planed to slip back behind the lines and recover them. He said in a couple pits he assisted opening there were a few hand guns mostly rifles and oddly the same number of machine guns in various models..I have wondered at times, if all those pits were found..we can always at least daydream about it. Again thanks for your comments...Harry P.S. Mr Kenyon is supposed to conect with me fri or sat. on his return from D.C...I am looking foreward to meeting the man.. __________________ Arizona transplant to South Carolina

09-11-2005, 09:32 AM	#46
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	I have a question. Would'nt someone know if von Tirpitz' estate was still standing or destroyed by the Allies. Seems to me that, that would be a memorable occurance. And something that would be documented or at least remembered. If it wasn't destroyed by demolition squad or even by the Allies. It would seem that if the story is hinky, then the pistols authenticity would be very doubtful. Just a thought. Also, if there was a "vault"? Was the pistol the only contents? Seems as though there would be a complete rig, presentation case, holster,tool, etc. As well as other valuable articles. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

09-16-2005, 04:07 AM	#48
c3006 User Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: east tn Posts: 526 Thanks: 5 Thanked 12 Times in 5 Posts	Man this is like the tape breaking near the end of a good John Wayne movie. __________________ Men Accustomed unto thier arms and their liberties will never endure the yoke. James Harrington 1776

10-09-2005, 03:44 PM	#52
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Should this pistol even have a stock lug? Unless it is made on a carbine frame. __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

08-22-2005, 08:05 PM	#41
MauserLugers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Philipsburg, Montana 59858 Posts: 250 Thanks: 0 Thanked 8 Times in 1 Post	No, I did not know about the 25 Walther of your father's, nor thousands of other GI bringbacks directly. My father was in WW2 as were two of my uncles and all have passed away now. I take it though, that your father's 25 was not a "one of a kind", extremely high dollar pistol, nor were the bring backs from my father or his brothers. Most of my relatives stuff was actually in the 85 to 90% condition. As I stated earlier, I do not know if your Luger is correct or not as Mausers are my field of collecting, but what I do know is mint Lugers are extremely hard to find. I just find it very interesting and yes, suspicious, that in the last couple of years two one of a kind Lugers have surfaced out of the blue, with no one ever hearing about them, in mint condition, with no history or trail. Since condition dictates price, it is interesting to me that both of these are in such grand condition. I'm personally not buying the explanation of the GI had it stuck away all this time, and no one ever heard or looked at it, but it really doesn't matter what I think, so convincing me is not one of your top priorities. Actually I hope it is correct, but I am suspicious. Lets face it, in todays collecting field you have to question every piece you see because so many have been messed with, and remember the stories, every Luger was taken directly off an officier, or better yet, an SS officier. --- Bill

08-24-2005, 08:59 AM	#43
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	I am told that both Charles Kenyon and Tom Armstrong will soon be seeing and examing this controversial Luger. I hope that one or both of them will enlighten all of us with their respected opinions.

09-10-2005, 10:32 PM	#45
Jan C Still User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Box 240188, Douglas, Alaska, 99824 Posts: 463 Thanks: 0 Thanked 52 Times in 32 Posts	Harry It is my understanding that Kenyon has examined the presentation Navy Luger under discussion. Please report the results of his examination. Members of both Forums examined your photographs and spent some time answering your questions. I am sure the members of both Forums are interested. Jan

09-11-2005, 10:14 AM	#47
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Ron, Please check your PM's.

09-16-2005, 03:28 PM	#49
MauserLugers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Philipsburg, Montana 59858 Posts: 250 Thanks: 0 Thanked 8 Times in 1 Post	So what has been found out about this pistol? Since nothing has been shared it would appear that the news was not good? What's the story? --- Bill

10-05-2005, 10:51 AM	#50
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Bill, Switch to the "Gunshow" section and look for a thread started by Geo. Anderson titled "I've See The Elephant"...

10-09-2005, 12:35 PM	#51
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	I have borrowed this photo from Jan's Gun Boards site... I thought I read somewhere in John Walter's book that the "c" on presentation pieces was used only on carbine models. If this is true, it does not appear correct on a Navy piece...??? Text Added by Pete : "The Luger Story" by John Walter, page 102, last 2 paragraphs along the page. I might be wrong, here...but didn't the German's spell carbine with a "k"...???

10-09-2005, 05:41 PM	#53
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Ron, I guess the frame would have to have come from a 1902 carbine as the stock lug looks very much a part of the frame and doesn't show any photo evidence of being welded on. Also, if I recollect correctly, the 1902 carbines that I have been fortunate to examine personally, all have had the full thickness grip safety and third type safety lever. These findings on the AvT Luger make one wonder why a fabricator in Waffenfabrik USA would have gone to all the trouble to find a second type safety lever and narrow grip safety to put on it, or was it just an attempt to confuse? Just taking a re-look at the photos of this piece make one marvel at how well it appears to be made and finished. I find it very hard to question the wisdom and experience of Charles Kenyon, but I would love to see in writing what there was about this piece to make him feel it was not an original presentation piece.