Ethics...by definition....

[G.T.]

Hi to all the forum members! Websters dictionary: Ethics... #3, "The branch of philosphy dealing with values relating to human conduct, with respect to the rightness and wrongness of actions and the goodness and badness of motives and ends." Quite a statement... We hear the words ethics and ethical, quite a bit in our life. Especially as we get older. The experience and wisdom gained along the way, should make

us better able to judge a given situation... sometimes! Everyone has their own mirror, and each see's a different image in it! Here's what I have found, (my view) on ethics and ethical behavior... I call them the three C's of ethics... The first and most important one is "Ethics of Choice" This type of person is never loud and seldom speaks on issues, but when he does, it is done with tact and grace, never attacking anyone, just simply stating his point to show where he stands. He most often stands alone, not that others don't support him or share his views... it is just that he really needs no support, as he is comfortable and solid in his view on the issue at hand... He lets others make up their own minds, learn through their own experiences, and shares with them as an equal friend, not from some self professed elevated position... regardless of how much or how little he has... People that have ethics of choice, are unique among the majority, but not rare, I have met many thru my 48 year young life... and they are my friends... (Clear image in a clean mirror!) The second C is "Ethics of chance" This has more to do with the formation of ethics, but is most important when one looks at how another may have come to the position they currently support! Ethics of chance are the type that are formed by who raised us, where we were raised, the teachers we had, the coaches we had, the crowd we ran with, and the experiences we had when we growing up! If we were lucky, we learn from the good and bad alike... This is the time of our life when we learn to stand alone, or learn to hide in the crowd! This becomes important later, as you will see... The third C is "Ethics of Convenience" This is the dark side of ethics. These are the people that hurt you, THEY ARE ALWAYS GREEDY! It's not about how they make a buck, It's about how and what they do to protect it! They make their own rules, abuse the power they have attained (or in many cases, been given), set up their own standards of right and wrong, and rewrite the history of the event to suit their needs, and clear their conscience, what little they have...What makes this twice as bad, is they have to get close to you to do this... (ugly image in a broken mirror!) In Short, people with "Ethics of Convenience" take advantage of people with "Ethics of Choice" and use people with "Ethics of Chance" to support their claim... Another name for this is, "When the posse rides, someone is going to get hung! Right or Wrong!" As my name has been mentioned in a previous thread, I felt that a short note on how I see thing was in order... Those that know me, understand the above statements, for those that don't know me, as stated above, you will have to make your own choice as to how you view the issue! Best of luck to all! till....later...G.T.

G.T.,


Very well spoken! I have never really had many dealings with you, save your responses to some of my postings on the forum. I too have been talked about on this forum in a negative light from time to time, because I speak the truth, which sometimes goes against the grain of many forum members, or at the least their perceptions of people and events. I live my life very simply, I try and treat everyone just a little better than I expect them to treat me. This kindness to others, is often mistaken for weakness. Nothing could be further than the truth. Then some people get very upset when I get angry with them or tell them the truth, which at times they refuse to see. I as well as most people on this forum(I hope) endeavor to help new members to this area of collecting and try our best to make sure that they have pleasant dealings with both dealers and collectors alike. We offer our advice not to be condesending, but rather to inform and help them avoid some of the problems we have encountered in the pursuit of the hobby. We need to be carefull how we present this information, as the written word does not allways convey our feelings 100% (Myself included, in my postings regarding my negative experiences). Let's face it, sometimes we don't like to have our perceptions altered, it's called Cognitive Dissonance. We like to have certain beliefs that remain constant, when they are not, it causes us feelings of uncomfortability and we strive to hold on to those beliefs at any cost. EXAMPLE: We grow up liking "Martians"(people from Mars)because we have allways had positive experiences with "Martians", they have allways treated us well. All the sudden we meet a "Martian" who takes advantage of us in some way. We then have to alter our view of "Martians" to fit our new circumstances, and experiences. This causes us feelings of discomfort, because we thought that "Martians" were good. when we tell others about our experiences they deny that "Martians" could ever be bad, because they have allways believed the opposite, and it's much easier to maintain their beliefs. This is an example that I have used to teach this concept to college students. This is the root reason that we become upset when we hear that people we have trusted in the past have suddenly done something wrong.(Police, Clergy, our parents, friends, spouses, dealers, ect.) We deny that it could be true, because we have allways trusted these people to "do the right thing". We as members of this forum need to help each other and be supportive, if we are to survive in this hobby. This involves sometimes challenging our thinking and acknowleging that we are not allways right. I know I've been guilty of this myself, from time to time. I try, as many of you do, to be completely honest in all my dealings. But that doesn't mean we will sit back when we see people trying to "get away" with something, ie the recent threads regarding "Fakery", dies to make any shooter into a rarity, and misrepresentation.


Well enough of my diatribe for now,


Tim Canney

is it unethical to clean up an old dirty luger?


is it unethical to clean up the old, greasy, oily grips of a luger?


is it unethical to dispaly your luger in the best possible setting?


is it unethical to light your luger with the best possible light?


is it unethical to describe your luger in the best terms possible?


is it unethical to try and stir up an emotional response when displaying a luger for sell?


is it unethical to over price ones luger?


is it unethical to sell lugers for only the sake of greed?


is it unethical to create interesting and exciting displays inorder to sell a luger?


is it unethical to create a luger from spare parts and call it matching ...if all the numbers match?


quite frankly i'm tired of all the talk on "ethics", the hypocritcy, and "holy than thou" comments from some forum members. we are all human. we all have our faults and weak points. in the end these are just guns and an overpriced hobby for the little kid in us. luger collecting is not about life. i wonder, just how many well known "dealers" with ample supply of lugers don't switch out parts to "create" matching lugers? i'm sorry, call me a cynic and skeptic of human nature, but i don't doubt for a minute that it doesn't happen. when you are dealing with items as old as these are, that have gone through as many hands as they have, and command the prices they do...it's bound to happen. i feel that those who are so concerned about a guns authenticity, matching and so forth are in the end concerned about value...which leads to the almighty dollar. and whether it's call collecting or what, it's an investment and one that eventually one day will pay off. yes even i am guilty of that and have blood on my hands.


so can we just get back to talking lugers before i go over to the 1911forum.com?

[John Sabato]

to this forum as Luger themselves are...


If you are bored, take a break at 1911forum.com and come back as the spirit encourages you... What is right and what is wrong is never off topic [OT] here. It is as germaine to Luger collecting as to any other kind of collection.


regards,


-John Sabato

why?

ethics are important in relationship to how we live in a civilized world.


but what is the real, underlying importance of "luger ethics"?

Tom, very good points and it just further AMPLIFIES my points. You can't be any closer to the root of all the Luger debates on this forum. The point being that the Golden Rule of Luger Collecting is the Guy with the GOLD RULES. It just isn't so. For many, it's only a manner of dollars! That is why it is so great to see the "newbie" (I still hate that term), unspoiled by all the deciet, inhearant it seems, in this hobby. Lugers are ripe for this due to their popularity, complexity, and value. It's not what you own, but rather what you are willing to share. It's not having all you want, but rather wanting all you have. It was really neat yesterday to see the posting by Lars, a hard working young man, willing to work hard to get what he wants, and being happy to be able to! It has been said that I should not buy the Lugers I do, if I can't afford them. Well the reality is that there have been (thank God) a few very good dealers, who have not forgotten what it is like to be a collector, who have gone out of their way to help me get some of those Lugers. I will gladly share those names with other collectors anytime. But I refuse to stand by and let a young gentleman like Lars, be taken advantage of, just so he can learn all the lessons I have had to learn the hard way. Am I a saint? Far from it! But, I am just an honest, collector, who can see the writting on the Forum Wall. If this "hobby" is reduced to mere dollars and cents than it becomes no more than a business. I don't for one minute buy that. Why do I stay here? It's guys like Lars who are here to learn and most of the guys on the forum who are here to teach, unselfishly, without regard to how much they can gain from the person posting. And yes, I do believe it is wrong to take someone into your confidence, just to make a BUCK!


That's All,


Tim

[John Sabato]

the history, engineering and use of the Luger pistol and it's uncountable variations. Ethics is just another way of saying "truth" and if we aren't dealing in the truth in this or any other relationship we have, we are wasting our time and anyone else's time that visits here and may as well close up this shop...


If explaining the importance of ethics in our dealings with others on any matter including Lugers is necessary, we have way too little space on this forum to do so...but I will make it a very short attempt...


The Bible teaches us that if God cannot trust us with the smallest of matters, why would He ever consider trusting us with matters of signifigance? It all simply boils down to trust...


If someone on whom I have a dependence for some factor in my life shows himself to be unethical, or in other words, untrustworthy, then I will likely replace that person in my life with someone I CAN trust... and warn those with whom I hold mutual trust of why that person is no longer part of my inner circle...


Trust must be earned... it is either part of your character, or the absence of it is part of your character.


I choose to be among the first group, not the second.


-JS


my $0.02


-John Sabato

[bill m]

Hi GT,

Liked your post.


I have some questions about ethic's though, and I'm not trying to put you or anyone else on the spot, but just want to bring up this question and get an honest answer if possible. So please do not take this personal and do not get mad as it is just a question asked in very broad tems to all the great craftsman out there. --


Why is it that the craftsman making stuff just put some puny little trademark on their product in some hidden place, or do not mark them at all? The rear Navy sight is a great example as discussed in the thread below. If it is to enhance shooters and to make an affordable navy, why not mark the sight on the OUTSIDE in such a manner that it could not be removed without damage to the sight? --- This has been discussed before, but we all know that a lot of this reproduction stuff is ending up back on the market represented as original issue. It is represented a lot of times to fool the novice collectors. -- So, I guess my question is: Why is it that reproductions or restorations are not marked BOLDLY in such a way that they reflect the pride of one's workmanship and so that they can not be confused with an original? I just feel that a lot of craftsman are playing it both ways -- protect themselves with a puny little mark if anyone asks, and then sells to other craftsman who they know are using their product to misrepresent an item. -- Seems like there are only two groups of people on this issue -- the extremes on both ends, and not many in the middle. Some are very concerned about fakes and people getting stuck with worthless junk, and some only care about their shooters and don't care what else happens. -- I've been saying this for years, but you craftsman can't have it both ways all the time -- take some pride in your workmanship and put a stamp on it that can't be removed in 5 seconds. Make a stand of some kind against fakes and reproductions being represented as originals, being used to fool people -- You can't have it both ways!

Sincerely, Bill Munis

[Ron Wood]

I go along with Bill. G.T.'s post is excellent and well written. Probably ought to be captured as a standard for the Forum.

I also go along with Bill's comments on craftsmen. Ted Green's (Thor) practice of marking his work is great. He has chosen to mark his finished works in the magazine cutout in the bottom of the grip. There it is readily visible but does not detract from the elegant good looks of the Luger. He strikes the markings deeply enough that it would take the removal of an obvious amount of metal to erase the mark, which could only be corrected by welding up that area and refinishing again. Anybody who could do that could have accomplished the re-finish in the first place.

The creation of a Navy rear sight is a daunting task. To make it authentic, the entire rear toggle link will have to be fabricated. If a sight that "looks" like a Navy is to be made and then dovetailed or drilled and tapped to attach it to the existing link, then that is an obvious modification and easily distinguished from the original. If the entire link/sight assembly is the goal, then I would suggest marking it with small but elegant mark on the portion of the sight that is exposed when you elevate the sight to the 200-meter postion (i.e. on the bright metal between the 100 and 200 markings). Once again, this accomplishes an indelible "brand" that could not be removed without major difficulty and not damage the sight or the "200" mark. Finally, might I suggest that a standard "reproduction" mark be adapted by the skilled craftsmen that are contributing to our hobby. Ted's three dot punch is simple and effective, but something else could be considered. If this mark was standardized, the "newbie" could be made aware of it's existence through this forum and other media. This will not protect them from the rip-off artists that do not incorporate the mark, but it will alert them to the presence of reproduction work by honest and honorable craftsmen. I fully sympathize with collectors who have spent years and lots of money to acquire authentic Lugers. They are justifiably proud of their collection (and fiercely protective of its value) so it is understandable that they would be enraged by a sudden glut of fakes (I said fakes not reproductions) that would seriously undercut the value of what they have spent so much time, effort and money to put together. There is room for both sides in this arguement, it just will take some cool heads to sort it out.

That is much more than 2-cents worth, sorry.

[G.T.]

First let me say, I do not, and will not, take your questions in the wrong light...to the contrary, I think they are well stated, and to the point! I will try to answer them, using my opinion and thoughts, as best I can, from my point of view.... First, as in the past, I've always felt that you and I could almost switch places in most of our discussions, and not even skip a beat, (this ain't going to be one of them!) as I can sense how strongly you feel about your points, most likely before they are even stated.... I have always felt that you are a great asset to the forum, and can "run with the dogs" in practically every area of the Luger field......So, with the same request, that you don't take any of this personally, I will try my best..... As Jerry Burney stated in another post, we walk a fine line with our abilities and skills, I (like Jerry) try to make perfect museum restoration quality parts... I don't feel as though I am making second quality parts, I feel that I am making brand new high quality luger parts! As such, I want them to be correct for every application, from function thru appearance... I don't like to mark my work, and I really don't like it when others mark theirs! I really don't like marks at all!! If I were king of the forest, I would make every part, and wouldn't mark any of them!! I love the luger from a completely different view point then most others, and that is from a mechanical, production, problem solving, assembled, machined, piece of asthetically pleasing piece of art point of view! This puts me one hell of a long ways from what collectors consider important... and puts me real close to what people like John V Martz, Mike Krause, Art Buchannan, and Ted Green and many others, think is important, and that is the best part possible (again, both in appearance and function) at a reasonable and affordable price, for the luger pistol!


I am not totally unsympathetic to the collectors concerns... It is just that, in my gun show years, I have seen terrible displays of veterans and their families (and rookies), getting bent over backwards by unscrupulous dealers, collectors, and speculators alike! They would then turn it (the pistol) for two to three times the price, or trade at an elevated figure, all the while bragging about the great deal they made... As long as the original owner was kept ignorant, it was justified as OK because everybody was happy! I got the feeling all was not right with the world, especially in the collecting arena... So, with that experience, I decided that everyone is ultimatly on there own, in the collecting field, and better off for it... The rookies have to learn the hard way, just as all the seasoned collectors did... there is no hand holding in collecting, and as the prices go up and the Lugers diminish, the issue becomes even more confused... the forum is great for sharing knowledge, but applying that knowledge at the time of purchase is quite another thing when you have to ---- or get off the pot! Bill, you are safe, as is Tom, and many others, you guys are quite safe... I think you have paid your dues, and are at the top of your game, you can help all by sharing your knowledge, (as you have done so many times in the past) rookies and advanced collectors alike benifit from your input... but putting marks on parts is sort of like gun control, the effort is misplaced ... All the above is my opinion only...don't want to torque anyone off, but that the way I see it!...till...later....G.T.

once money and greed get involved it ruins it for all of us. enjoy the luger for what it is - not how rare or expensive it happens to be - those issues are secondary to the real spirit of luger collecting.

[bill m]

Hi GT,

Thanks -- I respect your opinion and you have been in this game a long time and know how it is played. -- I even agree with most of it. -- When put in the perspective of marking is like some sort of registration, I can understand the concern! -- You will not get me bent out of shape as I like it when we speak from our heart and forget all the politically correct bull****. -- I'm still concerned and always will be about all the faked and messed with stuff out there, and I truely do not believe most have even the slightest clue as just how much of it there is. -- No hard feeling here. Enjoy your comments GT. Thanks -- bill m

If you wanted to see the true sprit of Luger Collecting you should have seen the people who gathered at the meeting of the Luger Forum in Arizona. True sportsmanship and the love of a beautiful weapon. Lots of interaction and exchange and I do not think anyone was trying to put anything over on anyone else. That inclded restorers, craftmen, collectors and dealers.

[G.T.]

Its always interesting to me, to hear your take on a situation! A lot of food for thought.....for everybody... Best to you Bill,... So....until the next go around! till...later....G.T.

The problem with ethics is, what is actually considered "ethical" is as varied as the number of people you may question. Bill Clinton certianly didn't think that what he did was unethical, nor did most of this country as his popularity ratings remained high. But for me, I must be in the minority to think that cheating on one's wife is unethical and wrong.


I once bought a nice M1911 Colt from a person I know and trust, who swore that the pistol was all original. I later discovered that the barrel had been replaced. So, was the seller unethical? Or did he simply make a wrong assumption and use it as a selling tool? You be the judge.

[Big Norm]

Tim,


I could not agree with you more. Teaching often elevates the teacher.

Big Norm

[Big Norm]

Ron,


good points. My problem is not with altering the rear toggle of a Luger. If someone wants to alter their Luger, then so be it. Just do not make the alteration look like the original navy toggle so that fifty years from now or someone with reasonable Luger knowledge would not mistake it.


I have long admired Spuhr HÃ?Â¥kans Lugers on The Owners Gallery not only for the craftsmanship but also for the photography. There is no mistaking his guns for what they are. In another thread, there are complaints about the navy Lugers not having windage adjustments and what could be done to correct that situation. I have no problem with that. I saw an earlier post that had a "Baby" Luger with a navy rear toggle on it. For that particular Luger, I thought it silly to put a navy toggle on a gun that is basically a point and shoot thing. So I looked at it and didn't say anything.


If, in the original post that started my complaints, the individual had said that he wanted to make a navy rear toggle but that he had an idea to make it even better. I would have said nothing. If he had said that they were going to make an exact real navy toggle reproduction out of stainless steel for the currently on the market stainless steel navy Lugers I would have thought that it really might be a good idea. Something worth watching.


What really goes thru my mind is a gun show that I went to last year where a guy had engraved a 1917 artillery with unit marks. I looked at the gun and played dumb. I just wanted to see just how far this jerk would go to sell me his Luger. This guy was jumping through hoops to try to convince me that the engravings were original. The guy did not know that he was the talk of the show and everyone was laughing AT him. It was sickening to me to observe just how far this guy would go. He actually permanently ruined an otherwise very nice artillery just to make a few bucks more.


With that in mind, I keep thinking about some guy altering a shooter to look and feel like a authentic navy Luger. Then some fifty years later, his great grand children finding his gun in an old suitcase of great grandfathers in the basement and then selling it off as a rare original mint navy Luger.


I have met many guys who are small gun collectors who only want something representative of different guns. They want only to have one nice Luger in their collection. But they know nothing about Stills or Kenyon. These poor guys are sitting ducks for the unscrupulous. I know, someones going to say "Thats Their Stupidity". But I feel for these guys. They don't have any idea of who is really a Luger "expert". There are guys out there who will convince you that they know everything there is to know about Lugers but really don't know nothing. An ego thing.

Big Norm