Lugers for Self Defense? - Page 4

HerbZ · 03-19-2009, 06:13 AM

H

I'm not much of a fan of SA revolvers. I've only owned one thumb buster, a .357 Ruger Blackhawk which I traded within months of purchasing. And not really familiar with the SASS. I stand corrected. But I certainly remember the film the Wild Bunch and the prominent part that the Colt Model 1911 played in it.

On the other hand I'm very much a fan of the Colt Model 1911. I passed on the opportunity to purchase a new Colt Model 1911 WW I Replica several years back, which I guess would qualify for the SASS and look real authentic too. But then it's not a totally authentic replica, being a Series 70 on the inside...but I digress.

azlaw · 03-19-2009, 09:16 PM

The Colt Custom Shop has been offering a "1911", which appears to be just that externally at least, but with Series 70 innards. (http://www.coltsmfg.com/cmci/1911WWI.asp).

I have seen one, and you sort of do a double take. First you see a 1911 in impossibly good condition, but then you notice a strange texture to the finish that isn't what you have ever seen on an original from the period. This is because all of Colt's horses and all of Colt's men can't (or won't) exactly duplicate the fine fit and finish of those old guns.

Most Wild Bunch shooters seem to be going with the inexpensive "plain Jane" 1911A1s that are coming from overseas right now. All are generally acceptable.

H

Mauser720 · 03-29-2009, 04:06 PM

The educated concensus is that the P08 should never be the first choice for self defense, much less concealed carry.

However, I obtained permission from my instructors to use my old .30 Luger with a six inch barrel for the firing range portion of my concealed carry permit class. Hip holsters were required.

Target distance using the FBI "Q" target was only 21 feet since most gunfights will take place within this short distance. As we were firing, we were yelling out loud "Drop the knife! Drop the knife!" before we fired two shots.

You can imagine the Luger generated a lot of interest. And I am pleased to report that in my group of six qualifiers, it did produce the tightest group. As we all know, it doesn't make much difference what cartridge you use if you can not hit exactly what you are aiming at under stressful conditions.

Mauser720 - Ron

rottenII · 03-29-2009, 04:33 PM

Nice shooting!

suum cuique · 08-28-2009, 01:25 PM

The worst gun I've ever had was a (new) 1911 Springfield Champion, .45ACP
I had all the time problems with the extraction of the shell after firing, it stucks most often 50% in the chamber.This happend with 5-6 several brands of ammo.
This still happens even after about 1200 rounds shot with this gun.

Mauser720 · 08-28-2009, 01:53 PM

suum cuique -

Maybe someone on The Forum can offer you some suggestions on how to fix this problem.

Mauser720 - Ron

HerbZ · 08-28-2009, 01:59 PM

New extractor. There are two less expensive alternative suggested, over to the right on the same page.

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=9...UFF__EXTRACTOR

suum cuique · 08-28-2009, 05:06 PM

Hi Herb,
thanks for your responce.
This was my first thought, too. But the extraction problems occured from the first day on. (I bought this gun as a brand new gun). Back then, the gun dealer ment, a 1911 needs alot of oil/grease to operate flawless. THen I lubed and oiled this gun very well.
Later, I showed this gun to a guy at the gun shop to get another suggestion, and he said, the extractor seems OK. If I extract a shell manually, then it works always without a problem, but when I shoot, then it doesn't work. I did not expect to have a bad extractor on a brand new gun.
In 1989, I bought my first Springfield. A regular 1911 A1-style gun in .45 ACP. THis gun fired always without any problems. A very, very reliable gun.
Andy

Ron Wood · 08-28-2009, 05:13 PM

New guns aren't always flawless. I bought a Colt Python in 1966 and one of the chambers was oversize...it split the brass every time I fired it. Colt replaced the cylinder free of charge of course, but errors do happen. After it was fixed, that was one sweet shooting side arm.

alanint · 08-28-2009, 05:27 PM

Contrary to what your dealer suggested, 1911 type pistols do not need a lot of oil/grease to operate acceptably.
One possibility is an overtight chamber, or one with burrs or ridges in it.
Take a close look at this area. Another is where the barrel ramp fits into the lower frame. Sometimes a poor fit here allows a gun to be hand cycled satisfactorily but will hang up when fired.

policeluger · 08-28-2009, 06:16 PM

I would suggest, with all respect to your ability's, seek a professional, I mean a real top notch gun smith to do the work, everyone thinks a 1911 in easy and simple, but it can be messed up in a heart beat....grease only on rails, light oil for rust prevention the rest.....

Ice · 08-28-2009, 06:21 PM

To check for chamber problems, do the "drop test". Remove the 1911 barrel and hold it chamber side up. Then drop a brand new factory cartridge into the chamber; it should go all the way down and even with the barrel hood lip. If it doesn't then you have a chamber problem. If it does then the next suspect is the extractor. If the extractor has too much tension then it will interfere with loading the cartridge; too little tension can cause problems with extracting the spent case. The 1911 forums have stickys on do-it-yourself extractor tensioning. If you don't have confidence in diong this a good gunsmith should be able to fix the problem in just a few minutes while you wait.

Charlie

suum cuique · 08-28-2009, 07:15 PM

to you all for your advise. I really appreciate it.
Well, the gun dealer who recommended to use alot of grease/oil on my 1911 was the same guy which recommended to use +p+ ammo in my Luger when I bought the gun.
Andy

PhilOhio · 08-29-2009, 03:44 PM

Andy,

The 1911A1, in standard military configuration, is my all-time favorite pistol. If properly set up and maintained, they are extremely reliable.

BUT...

...once all the big wars passed, and as soon as every new 1911 built was no longer examined by military acceptance personnel, the problems began. And the civilian manufacturers, no longer working under government contract, began turning out garbage which is out of specs and, in many cases, cannot possibly work at all. You'd be surprised at which manufacturers are doing this.

I always have five to seven of these (which work

). In the '60s and '70s, I built a few for close professional friends in the Washington area, and some of them saw serious use. So they had to be right. But doing that was easy, because there was still a good supply of military surplus parts which had gone through the acceptance process and were within specifications. That is the key. Good frames and slides were available and still are. But for everything to go together and work, each component has to be in spec. That is just about no longer possible. So I stopped building .45s.

There is no hit-and-miss way you can be sure you will have fixed your pistol yourself, so you can depend upon it, unless you are thoroughly familiar with the design and have worked on a bunch of them.

You can use your pistol as part of the learning process, and follow some of the trouble shooting advice here. But if you want it to work right now, for serious, Policeluger's advice on seeking professional assistance is the only safe solution.

Once your 1911 is debugged, it will give long and reliable service, as long as it gets reasonably good care and good ammunition.

Oh yes, if you want to buy a rather good and inexpensive 1911 which is close to the WW-II milspec plain Jane pistol, which is going to work out-of-the-box, and which will have good parts interchangeability, take a look at the ones made in the Philippines by Armscorp. Those people have intimate, lifelong familiarity with the 1911, carbine, M-1, Thompson, and everything our guys carried over there during the war. They love it, know it, and build it right. I don't want to sound like a commercial, but it's the truth...at least in my experience. So then what happened? Dealers started boosting the retail prices on their Armscorp pistols. I believe Springfield also sells some of these under their own name.

suum cuique · 08-29-2009, 05:18 PM

Phil,
I will follow your and PoliceLuger's advise to bring the 1911 Springfield Champion to a gunsmith.
(This Springfield Champion was brand new and produced in Brazil).
In 1988 or 1989 I bought a regular Springfield 1911 in .45ACP, this 1911 never caused any problem.
But back to the thread:
I guess, a good Luger-shooter is also a gun for self defense, maybe not the best, but not the worst, either.
Anyway, the Luger was made for self defense. That's what a sidearm is made for. Or am I wrong?
Thanks,
Andy

alanint · 08-29-2009, 10:45 PM

A Luger will do nicely if there is no other firearm available.
Remember, the first rule of gunfighting is bring a gun!!

FNorm · 08-30-2009, 08:13 AM

Interesting thread. I agree especially with davidk. The cops love to hold on to things. I had a bad car accident a few years back. Took forever to get my HK P7 back from them. It's legal to carry in your car here. As for home defense, I bought a plain jane, SS Kimber for right around what you'd spend for a Luger 'shooter'. An amazing piece! Accurate as hell right outta the box. I did splurg a few years later and put the Crimson Trace laser sights on it. But it is still only the back up to the Mossburg 590 12ga.

FN

PhilOhio · 08-30-2009, 11:35 AM

Andy,

If you have a Brazilian 1911 from Springfield, it's likely to be a good one and worth the time and attention of a gunsmith; but not just any gunsmith. It has to be somebody thoroughly familiar with the design. Many gunsmiths are.

FNorm,

You have a P7. Truly wonderful, safe, reliable gun; virtually foolproof. I have a P7M13 which I bought new in 1986, but don't shoot much due to the need for jacketed bullets only. I shoot mostly my lead bullet reloads. And the gun is a bit bulky for daily carry, although I designed and made a good holster to carry on the rear of the belt.

And I had just about run out of the bullets I swage for it only, 125 grain truncated cone jacketed soft point hollow point. So the last two days, I made a batch of 420. Then I happily discovered that they feed just fine in my S/42 Luger, also. I'll have to run some through the chrono, when time permits.

So this is a new dilemma. Looks like my Luger might handle my favorite serious bullet, but I can't bring myself to trust any Luger, even one that seems to run reliably, for regular carry when there are other options. Guess I'm getting neurotic, when I have so many choices.

FNorm · 08-30-2009, 11:54 AM

Phil,

I think I got mine about the same time. The M8 though. Good 'panic gun'. Grab, squeeze any two things in any order and blam! You ever check out the bore though? Strange rifling, not really lands and grooves, but a twist.

FN

PhilOhio · 08-31-2009, 07:51 PM

Norm,

Yes, they have been doing the polygonal rifling thing for a long time. And you will also notice that the front part of the chamber on your M8 has all the little grooves, to bleed gas back between the case and chamber wall, to aid extraction, as though a blowback 9mm needs it.

H&K loves those grooves; puts 'em in all their guns. It distinctively marks any empty case fired in an H&K.

With the P7, squeeze everything, in any order or at the same time, and it goes "bang". Let go of everything, in any order or at the same time, or then drop it, or drive over it, or throw it at somebody, and it is instantly and totally safe; can't go "bang".

Quite a gun. In almost 25 years of owning my P7M13, I have never had a failure to feed, fire, eject, or anything else. And it is an accurate gun, although the spongy trigger leaves something to be desired. I can live with that, for all the other benefits. You can trust that gun totally. Tthat is true of very few firearms. And loading magazines is kind of a pain.

03-19-2009, 06:13 AM	#61
HerbZ User Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Ohio Posts: 128 Thanks: 20 Thanked 9 Times in 7 Posts	The Wild Bunch H I'm not much of a fan of SA revolvers. I've only owned one thumb buster, a .357 Ruger Blackhawk which I traded within months of purchasing. And not really familiar with the SASS. I stand corrected. But I certainly remember the film the Wild Bunch and the prominent part that the Colt Model 1911 played in it. On the other hand I'm very much a fan of the Colt Model 1911. I passed on the opportunity to purchase a new Colt Model 1911 WW I Replica several years back, which I guess would qualify for the SASS and look real authentic too. But then it's not a totally authentic replica, being a Series 70 on the inside...but I digress. __________________ "I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." Mark Twain

03-29-2009, 04:06 PM	#63
Mauser720 User Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Kansas Posts: 535 Thanks: 18 Thanked 49 Times in 33 Posts	The educated concensus is that the P08 should never be the first choice for self defense, much less concealed carry. However, I obtained permission from my instructors to use my old .30 Luger with a six inch barrel for the firing range portion of my concealed carry permit class. Hip holsters were required. Target distance using the FBI "Q" target was only 21 feet since most gunfights will take place within this short distance. As we were firing, we were yelling out loud "Drop the knife! Drop the knife!" before we fired two shots. You can imagine the Luger generated a lot of interest. And I am pleased to report that in my group of six qualifiers, it did produce the tightest group. As we all know, it doesn't make much difference what cartridge you use if you can not hit exactly what you are aiming at under stressful conditions. Mauser720 - Ron Attached Thumbnails

08-28-2009, 01:25 PM	#65
suum cuique User Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: MD / Currently about 9000 klicks east of the Potomac Posts: 497 Thanks: 100 Thanked 47 Times in 35 Posts	The worst gun I've ever had was a (new) 1911 Springfield Champion, .45ACP I had all the time problems with the extraction of the shell after firing, it stucks most often 50% in the chamber.This happend with 5-6 several brands of ammo. This still happens even after about 1200 rounds shot with this gun. Last edited by suum cuique; 09-25-2009 at 06:19 PM.

08-28-2009, 01:59 PM	#67
HerbZ User Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Ohio Posts: 128 Thanks: 20 Thanked 9 Times in 7 Posts	New extractor. There are two less expensive alternative suggested, over to the right on the same page. http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=9...UFF__EXTRACTOR __________________ "I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." Mark Twain Last edited by HerbZ; 08-28-2009 at 02:05 PM. Reason: Forgot 'bout the Bullet Proof & other M1911 extractors.

08-28-2009, 05:13 PM	#69
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	New guns aren't always flawless. I bought a Colt Python in 1966 and one of the chambers was oversize...it split the brass every time I fired it. Colt replaced the cylinder free of charge of course, but errors do happen. After it was fixed, that was one sweet shooting side arm. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction Last edited by Ron Wood; 08-30-2009 at 10:09 AM.

03-19-2009, 09:16 PM	#62
azlaw User Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 204 Thanks: 1 Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts	The Colt Custom Shop has been offering a "1911", which appears to be just that externally at least, but with Series 70 innards. (http://www.coltsmfg.com/cmci/1911WWI.asp). I have seen one, and you sort of do a double take. First you see a 1911 in impossibly good condition, but then you notice a strange texture to the finish that isn't what you have ever seen on an original from the period. This is because all of Colt's horses and all of Colt's men can't (or won't) exactly duplicate the fine fit and finish of those old guns. Most Wild Bunch shooters seem to be going with the inexpensive "plain Jane" 1911A1s that are coming from overseas right now. All are generally acceptable. H

03-29-2009, 04:33 PM	#64
rottenII User Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 25 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Nice shooting!

08-28-2009, 01:53 PM	#66
Mauser720 User Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Kansas Posts: 535 Thanks: 18 Thanked 49 Times in 33 Posts	suum cuique - Maybe someone on The Forum can offer you some suggestions on how to fix this problem. Mauser720 - Ron

08-28-2009, 05:06 PM	#68
suum cuique User Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: MD / Currently about 9000 klicks east of the Potomac Posts: 497 Thanks: 100 Thanked 47 Times in 35 Posts	Hi Herb, thanks for your responce. This was my first thought, too. But the extraction problems occured from the first day on. (I bought this gun as a brand new gun). Back then, the gun dealer ment, a 1911 needs alot of oil/grease to operate flawless. THen I lubed and oiled this gun very well. Later, I showed this gun to a guy at the gun shop to get another suggestion, and he said, the extractor seems OK. If I extract a shell manually, then it works always without a problem, but when I shoot, then it doesn't work. I did not expect to have a bad extractor on a brand new gun. In 1989, I bought my first Springfield. A regular 1911 A1-style gun in .45 ACP. THis gun fired always without any problems. A very, very reliable gun. Andy

08-28-2009, 05:27 PM	#70
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Contrary to what your dealer suggested, 1911 type pistols do not need a lot of oil/grease to operate acceptably. One possibility is an overtight chamber, or one with burrs or ridges in it. Take a close look at this area. Another is where the barrel ramp fits into the lower frame. Sometimes a poor fit here allows a gun to be hand cycled satisfactorily but will hang up when fired.

08-28-2009, 06:16 PM	#71
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	I would suggest, with all respect to your ability's, seek a professional, I mean a real top notch gun smith to do the work, everyone thinks a 1911 in easy and simple, but it can be messed up in a heart beat....grease only on rails, light oil for rust prevention the rest.....

08-28-2009, 06:21 PM	#72
Ice User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 552 Thanks: 13 Thanked 69 Times in 57 Posts	To check for chamber problems, do the "drop test". Remove the 1911 barrel and hold it chamber side up. Then drop a brand new factory cartridge into the chamber; it should go all the way down and even with the barrel hood lip. If it doesn't then you have a chamber problem. If it does then the next suspect is the extractor. If the extractor has too much tension then it will interfere with loading the cartridge; too little tension can cause problems with extracting the spent case. The 1911 forums have stickys on do-it-yourself extractor tensioning. If you don't have confidence in diong this a good gunsmith should be able to fix the problem in just a few minutes while you wait. Charlie

08-28-2009, 07:15 PM	#73
suum cuique User Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: MD / Currently about 9000 klicks east of the Potomac Posts: 497 Thanks: 100 Thanked 47 Times in 35 Posts	Thanks to you all for your advise. I really appreciate it. Well, the gun dealer who recommended to use alot of grease/oil on my 1911 was the same guy which recommended to use +p+ ammo in my Luger when I bought the gun. Andy

08-29-2009, 03:44 PM	#74
PhilOhio User Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Ohio Posts: 145 Thanks: 5 Thanked 17 Times in 14 Posts	Andy, The 1911A1, in standard military configuration, is my all-time favorite pistol. If properly set up and maintained, they are extremely reliable. BUT... ...once all the big wars passed, and as soon as every new 1911 built was no longer examined by military acceptance personnel, the problems began. And the civilian manufacturers, no longer working under government contract, began turning out garbage which is out of specs and, in many cases, cannot possibly work at all. You'd be surprised at which manufacturers are doing this. I always have five to seven of these (which work ). In the '60s and '70s, I built a few for close professional friends in the Washington area, and some of them saw serious use. So they had to be right. But doing that was easy, because there was still a good supply of military surplus parts which had gone through the acceptance process and were within specifications. That is the key. Good frames and slides were available and still are. But for everything to go together and work, each component has to be in spec. That is just about no longer possible. So I stopped building .45s. There is no hit-and-miss way you can be sure you will have fixed your pistol yourself, so you can depend upon it, unless you are thoroughly familiar with the design and have worked on a bunch of them. You can use your pistol as part of the learning process, and follow some of the trouble shooting advice here. But if you want it to work right now, for serious, Policeluger's advice on seeking professional assistance is the only safe solution. Once your 1911 is debugged, it will give long and reliable service, as long as it gets reasonably good care and good ammunition. Oh yes, if you want to buy a rather good and inexpensive 1911 which is close to the WW-II milspec plain Jane pistol, which is going to work out-of-the-box, and which will have good parts interchangeability, take a look at the ones made in the Philippines by Armscorp. Those people have intimate, lifelong familiarity with the 1911, carbine, M-1, Thompson, and everything our guys carried over there during the war. They love it, know it, and build it right. I don't want to sound like a commercial, but it's the truth...at least in my experience. So then what happened? Dealers started boosting the retail prices on their Armscorp pistols. I believe Springfield also sells some of these under their own name.

08-29-2009, 05:18 PM	#75
suum cuique User Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: MD / Currently about 9000 klicks east of the Potomac Posts: 497 Thanks: 100 Thanked 47 Times in 35 Posts	Phil, I will follow your and PoliceLuger's advise to bring the 1911 Springfield Champion to a gunsmith. (This Springfield Champion was brand new and produced in Brazil). In 1988 or 1989 I bought a regular Springfield 1911 in .45ACP, this 1911 never caused any problem. But back to the thread: I guess, a good Luger-shooter is also a gun for self defense, maybe not the best, but not the worst, either. Anyway, the Luger was made for self defense. That's what a sidearm is made for. Or am I wrong? Thanks, Andy Last edited by suum cuique; 08-29-2009 at 05:20 PM. Reason: spelling

08-29-2009, 10:45 PM	#76
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	A Luger will do nicely if there is no other firearm available. Remember, the first rule of gunfighting is bring a gun!!

08-30-2009, 08:13 AM	#77
FNorm Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 978 Thanks: 68 Thanked 127 Times in 108 Posts	Interesting thread. I agree especially with davidk. The cops love to hold on to things. I had a bad car accident a few years back. Took forever to get my HK P7 back from them. It's legal to carry in your car here. As for home defense, I bought a plain jane, SS Kimber for right around what you'd spend for a Luger 'shooter'. An amazing piece! Accurate as hell right outta the box. I did splurg a few years later and put the Crimson Trace laser sights on it. But it is still only the back up to the Mossburg 590 12ga. FN Last edited by FNorm; 08-30-2009 at 08:15 AM. Reason: spelling

08-30-2009, 11:35 AM	#78
PhilOhio User Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Ohio Posts: 145 Thanks: 5 Thanked 17 Times in 14 Posts	Andy, If you have a Brazilian 1911 from Springfield, it's likely to be a good one and worth the time and attention of a gunsmith; but not just any gunsmith. It has to be somebody thoroughly familiar with the design. Many gunsmiths are. FNorm, You have a P7. Truly wonderful, safe, reliable gun; virtually foolproof. I have a P7M13 which I bought new in 1986, but don't shoot much due to the need for jacketed bullets only. I shoot mostly my lead bullet reloads. And the gun is a bit bulky for daily carry, although I designed and made a good holster to carry on the rear of the belt. And I had just about run out of the bullets I swage for it only, 125 grain truncated cone jacketed soft point hollow point. So the last two days, I made a batch of 420. Then I happily discovered that they feed just fine in my S/42 Luger, also. I'll have to run some through the chrono, when time permits. So this is a new dilemma. Looks like my Luger might handle my favorite serious bullet, but I can't bring myself to trust any Luger, even one that seems to run reliably, for regular carry when there are other options. Guess I'm getting neurotic, when I have so many choices.

08-30-2009, 11:54 AM	#79
FNorm Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 978 Thanks: 68 Thanked 127 Times in 108 Posts	Phil, I think I got mine about the same time. The M8 though. Good 'panic gun'. Grab, squeeze any two things in any order and blam! You ever check out the bore though? Strange rifling, not really lands and grooves, but a twist. FN

08-31-2009, 07:51 PM	#80
PhilOhio User Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Ohio Posts: 145 Thanks: 5 Thanked 17 Times in 14 Posts	Norm, Yes, they have been doing the polygonal rifling thing for a long time. And you will also notice that the front part of the chamber on your M8 has all the little grooves, to bleed gas back between the case and chamber wall, to aid extraction, as though a blowback 9mm needs it. H&K loves those grooves; puts 'em in all their guns. It distinctively marks any empty case fired in an H&K. With the P7, squeeze everything, in any order or at the same time, and it goes "bang". Let go of everything, in any order or at the same time, or then drop it, or drive over it, or throw it at somebody, and it is instantly and totally safe; can't go "bang". Quite a gun. In almost 25 years of owning my P7M13, I have never had a failure to feed, fire, eject, or anything else. And it is an accurate gun, although the spongy trigger leaves something to be desired. I can live with that, for all the other benefits. You can trust that gun totally. Tthat is true of very few firearms. And loading magazines is kind of a pain.