M1914 Navy Luger... - Page 2

John Sabato · 10-26-2004, 02:05 PM

Gunsndogs,

Let me be the first to welcome you to the Lugerforum...

Because this is your FIRST post, let me suggest strongly that you go to the Forum Decorum Document

http://www.lugerforum.com/ForumDecorum.html

and read it and also the Terms of Service agreement with the link at the bottom of that page...

These are found as the top document link on the General Information page...

you agreed to these when you registered to participate in this forum. Make sure you also read the part about agreeing to a $5000.00 fee for attempting to re-register after you have been banned... This is a PRIVATE forum open only to that portion of the internet public who will abide by the rules...

I have edited your posting... to remove your Terms of Service and Forum Decorum violations.

You are welcome to participate here as long as your participation is within the guidelines you have agreed to... if you can't do that, you will be banned from further participation...

We discuss things in a civilized manner on this website... and flames and personal attacks are absolutely forbidden...

Edward Tinker · 10-26-2004, 03:33 PM

Bernie, I think the whole gist of what everyone is talking about is that you need to be is careful when you buy or attempt to buy a Navy... They are faked more than just about any other luger, except for Goering's

Ed

gunsndogs · 10-26-2004, 04:37 PM

Thanks Ed :-)Sorry about my posts...

Are both the Navy Lugers fakes? Or just bad pictures? How can I tell for sure without seeing them in front of me? I would really hate to miss out on a nice find because of bad presentation & and wording.
Anyone here good at buying this way over the net who could give me some pointers?

Navy · 10-26-2004, 05:59 PM

gunsndogs,

Do a search on this site for pieces I have written on how to authenticate; most people who have read them think they are informative. And *never* believe you can determine authenticity from a photo. A fake, yes; but a real one has to be seen in person by a reasonably knowledgable individual.

Tom A.

Malcolm P. · 10-26-2004, 08:29 PM

Gunsndogs,

As you probably have already figured out, the Navy Lugers are fairly rare and in recent years seen a lot of fakes made. I do not pretend to be anything but a newbie myself, but the Luger looked "too good" and was not being sold with a 3-day inspection period for return. I will go ahead and share what I have learned just getting started myself.

I have been strongly encouraged not to deal with anyone offering wares online that does not agree to an inspection period. There are a lot of refinished or reworked Lugers floating around priced as 100% original. This includes Russian reworks and VOPO reworks that are anything but original. There are also a fair number of high quality restorations around. Finally, there are some very high quality "fake" Navy Lugers that have been manufactured in recent years. The only way to really tell what you have is to have a chance to examine the Luger hands-on or have good quality digital photos to examine.

Also, no matter how you look at it, a restocking fee of $1000 is not a good thing! I think a lot of board members will agree that that is a red flag from the start. That along with the lack of any holster wear raised a huge red flag with me. Others can correct me if I am wrong, but the Lugers that have seen use do have some holster wear on the side plate. That is what I have been told is one tell tale sign that the gun may have been refinished. For an 85 year old gun, this one looked too good.

If you are interested, I would contact the seller and ensure that you can indeed have a 3-day inspection without any restocking fee. Try to have someone knowlegable available to verify that it is what is purported to be.

Good luck and welcome to the board.

Big Norm · 10-26-2004, 09:52 PM

gunsndogs,
Please don't misinterpret my comments to Pete, Malcolm or TomA as down playing the integrety and knowlege of these gentlemen. Both Pete and TomA are valuable contributers to this forum. Malcolms posts were excellent common sense thoughts. All the comments made by these gentlemen should be taken as 'Luger Buying 101' and should be read by all newbies as to how to buy a Luger on the internet and even elsewhere.

My comments may have sounded a bit more negative than I wanted them to sound like. Its just that recently I have seen and handled a spat of unusually good Lugers in private collections. These Lugers don't see daylight very often and are very expensive because of their rarity and condition. So I have a momentary disposition to not rule out a Luger simply because it looks too minty. But minty guns are usually well known by collectors who wait in line for the seller to give even the slightest hint of selling. So a true minty Luger ususally doesn't last long enough to make it to an internet auction.

With that said, the comments made by the above mentioned gentlemen should be heeded as good lessons to be remembered. Minty Lugers on the internet should be viewed with some skeptism. The pictures of this particular navy were too glary and there wasn't enough of them to tell if the gun is a well done, but much cheaper, restored gun. The sellers description also left a lot to be desired.

The second navy Luger that you mentioned (I think that it was the 1906 navy) had much a better description and better pictures. The sellers write up was 95+% accurate. But this gun was previously mentioned and commented on in a different topic under Navy Lugers.
Big Norm

Pete Ebbink · 10-27-2004, 07:36 PM

Received some emails from the seller.

They are convinced it is totally original and authentic. Said a few local collectors (i.e. not luger collectors, per se...) have seen the gun and also swear it is not refinished.

If I were personally interested...I would find out where the gun shop is located and possibly travel in person to see before I buy.

At a minimum; I would ask the seller to send more detailed photos, as I suggested in my earlier posting. And I would want them to clarify, in writing their inspection policy and if that 30% restock fee is in effect or not for this piece...

Here is the policy from the ad...sure sounds like they want to keep $ 1200 if you return the gun :

" **USED FIREARMS: 3 DAY INSPECTION PERIOD ONLY! ITEM(s) MUST BE RETURNED IN AN UNALTERED CONDITION FOR ANY CONSIDERATION FOR ANY TYPE OF REFUND (NO EXCEPTIONS)A 30% RESTOCKING FEE MAY BE APPLIED FOR ANY RETURNS. ALL SHIPPING, HANDLING, INSURANCE IS NON-REFUNDABLE "

One last thing I did not like about this piece (if original finish)...most 1916 or 1917 Navy pieces I have seen have some unique machining lines running in the recessed "ear" sections of the frame. This one does not appear to have these...leading me to my conclusion it was reworked.

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Navy · 10-27-2004, 08:21 PM

gentlemen, gentlemen, gentlemen,

The gun is a very well done restoration. It has been blasted with glass beads to remove surface imperfections and then carefully rust blued/strawed.

It is a re-do, pure and simple.

Tom A.

larry · 10-27-2004, 09:34 PM

A 78 year old Luger in factory new condition?
Even if you didn't know anything about Lugers it would seem to me that simple logic would question this Luger.
larry

John Sabato · 10-28-2004, 09:23 AM

Hey Larry... sure haven't heard from you in a while! For those that don't know Larry... he is one of the forum Old Timers... and a Navy Luger enthusiast... What have you been doing Larry? just lurkin?

larry · 10-28-2004, 12:59 PM

John
You pegged me. I have learned so much from you guys and check the Navy Luger section every day.
Still hope to meet you one of these days. I would like to check out your 08 and compare it to mine.
Ours are only a few numbers apart. Keep up the good work.
Many thanks
larry

gunsndogs · 10-30-2004, 02:54 PM

Great insight from everyone!

I have been doing my share of reading and making phone calls. I called a well known gunsmith in my area. I asked him if I could pick his brain about Navy Lugers.

Here are some pointers he gave me:

1) First never never clean your Luger grips with Kerosene or anything like that. These are wood grips not firewood he said (I hope it is o.k. to repeat that advice he told me)

If you want to clean them he suggest that you find a "qualified" & "reputable" gunsmith in your area and go see him about how to have it done.

2) To spot a fake, rework, etc from a photograph is not an accepted practice. The reason being that some people who produce fakes will make them look the way you want them to look authentic. Example: should have certain marks, wear patters, etc. So these people add them to the guns to make them appear more authentic and desirable to you the buyer. You should be very leery if the gun has what appears as "normal" wear patters...because most good fakes have had these marks or wear patterns.

3) Most Lugers were: either rust blue or dip blue depending on the year of the Luger. In late 1937 Mauser decided to stop rust bluing Lugers as a means to speed up production, as dip bluing was faster but less durable. In either case the finish needs to be the original finish appropriate for the period.

So to tell a fake you can look inside the interior frame of the gun. Inside surfaces
of a rust blued piece are in the white and the inside surfaces of a salt blued piece are blued. This is also one way to tell if a Navy Luger has been reblued or not. (This only works if the firearm was originally done by these methods & within the time frame)

O.k. I have copied the information from the posting of the Navy Luger:

They do offer a 3 day inspection for used firearms (see below).

RARE FIND! Mint Condition 1916 Dated Navy All matching Numbers Including Magazine.

**NOTE: BUYER IS RESPONSIBLE FOR ALL SHIPPING, HANDLING, INSURANCE, AND TAX.
(SHIPPING, HANDLING, INSURANCE IS NON-REFUNDABLE)

**USED FIREARMS:
3 DAY INSPECTION PERIOD ONLY!
ITEM(s) MUST BE RETURNED IN AN
UNALTERED CONDITION
FOR ANY CONSIDERATION FOR ANY TYPE OF REFUND (NO EXCEPTIONS)
A 30% RESTOCKING FEE MAY BE
APPLIED FOR ANY RETURNS.
ALL SHIPPING, HANDLING, INSURANCE IS NON-REFUNDABLE

**NEW FIREARMS:
ALL SALES FINAL WITH MANUFACTURES WARRANTY ONLY.
WE WILL APPLY A 30% RESTOCKING FEE FOR ALL RETURNS. ALL SHIPPING, HANDLING, INSURANCE IS NON-REFUNDABLE

(BTW: Most mail order companies these days charge you S&H. Depending on the carrier, insurance may or may not be mandatory. Restocking fees too for returned items)

Gun Broker isn't just for the home seller anymore. Tons of companies list inventory for sale on these auction sites. They are getting more money & people viewing them,
then they would at gun shows and at local auctions.

This is only my opinion.
I don't like to see people getting a bad rap when they cannot be heard & defend themselves.

I have no particular talent. I am merely inquisitive. -Albert Einstein

Pete Ebbink · 10-30-2004, 05:08 PM

Bernie,

I did send the Gun Broker seller an invite to the Luger Forum. Suspect they did log on and read the discussion about their pistol.

This was obvious from one of their replies to me, in off-forum private emails, about the discussion.

But I think they decided not to "join" the on-line discussion about this Navy.

I was hoping they would take the list of additional photos I suggested a prospective buyer should ask for in my previous posting and take the photos and update their auction ad to "convince" buyers and other looky-lou's that their Navy is an original, factory finish. They did not take the "hint"...

p.s. A bunch of expert refinishers that are passing off their reworks as origial have certainly mastered the art of redoing a rust blue job while leaving the original "in-the-white" interior of the gun's frame as such. The presence of an "in-the-white" frame interior, by itself, cannot be the only factor one uses to determine an original piece from a rework.

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Navy · 10-30-2004, 05:54 PM

All,
"The presence of an "in-the-white" frame interior, by itself, cannot be the only factor one uses to determine an original piece from a rework."

Lord were it so.....
Guys, do your flipping homework or pay *BIG* tuition bills at Luger U.

Tom A.

George Anderson · 10-31-2004, 08:47 AM

I like the part about kerosene.

Pete Ebbink · 12-12-2004, 12:48 PM

Another "in-the-white" frame interior on what appears, to me, a restoration :

http://www.phoenixinvestmentarms.com/06commnav1.htm

Ron Smith · 12-12-2004, 01:08 PM

Pete,
Another PIA, if you have to ask, you can't afford it Luger. I wonder if they ever sell anything? Some of their stuff has been on GB for a year or more.

Ron

champ7fc · 12-12-2004, 03:49 PM

I made the mistake of purchasing a 1914 Artillery that looked very nice in the pictures. I learned a very expensive lesson from these people. It would be a cold day in Hell before I would consider any of their items again.
Craig

Navy · 12-13-2004, 05:59 PM

Gents,

Note the size of the font for the number 3 under the barrel. Likewise note the strength, dare I say blatentness of the straw?

Come on guys, give an old soldier a break. $12K?

The only example in the English Language when two positives equal a negative: "Yeah, right!"

Tom A.

Pete Ebbink · 12-15-2004, 11:58 PM

Not much left of the BUG proofs or the C/M proof or the calibre stamping on the barrel...serial number fonts look odd, too...

10-26-2004, 02:05 PM	#21
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Gunsndogs, Let me be the first to welcome you to the Lugerforum... Because this is your FIRST post, let me suggest strongly that you go to the Forum Decorum Document http://www.lugerforum.com/ForumDecorum.html and read it and also the Terms of Service agreement with the link at the bottom of that page... These are found as the top document link on the General Information page... you agreed to these when you registered to participate in this forum. Make sure you also read the part about agreeing to a $5000.00 fee for attempting to re-register after you have been banned... This is a PRIVATE forum open only to that portion of the internet public who will abide by the rules... I have edited your posting... to remove your Terms of Service and Forum Decorum violations. You are welcome to participate here as long as your participation is within the guidelines you have agreed to... if you can't do that, you will be banned from further participation... We discuss things in a civilized manner on this website... and flames and personal attacks are absolutely forbidden... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

10-26-2004, 03:33 PM	#22
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	Bernie, I think the whole gist of what everyone is talking about is that you need to be is careful when you buy or attempt to buy a Navy... They are faked more than just about any other luger, except for Goering's Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

10-28-2004, 09:23 AM	#30
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Hey Larry... sure haven't heard from you in a while! For those that don't know Larry... he is one of the forum Old Timers... and a Navy Luger enthusiast... What have you been doing Larry? just lurkin? __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

12-12-2004, 01:08 PM	#37
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Pete, Another PIA, if you have to ask, you can't afford it Luger. I wonder if they ever sell anything? Some of their stuff has been on GB for a year or more. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

12-12-2004, 03:49 PM	#38
champ7fc User Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Connecticut Posts: 103 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post	I made the mistake of purchasing a 1914 Artillery that looked very nice in the pictures. I learned a very expensive lesson from these people. It would be a cold day in Hell before I would consider any of their items again. Craig __________________ cfm

10-26-2004, 04:37 PM	#23
gunsndogs User Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks Ed :-)Sorry about my posts... Are both the Navy Lugers fakes? Or just bad pictures? How can I tell for sure without seeing them in front of me? I would really hate to miss out on a nice find because of bad presentation & and wording. Anyone here good at buying this way over the net who could give me some pointers?

10-26-2004, 05:59 PM	#24
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	gunsndogs, Do a search on this site for pieces I have written on how to authenticate; most people who have read them think they are informative. And never believe you can determine authenticity from a photo. A fake, yes; but a real one has to be seen in person by a reasonably knowledgable individual. Tom A.

10-26-2004, 08:29 PM	#25
Malcolm P. User Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Dallas, Texas Posts: 57 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Gunsndogs, As you probably have already figured out, the Navy Lugers are fairly rare and in recent years seen a lot of fakes made. I do not pretend to be anything but a newbie myself, but the Luger looked "too good" and was not being sold with a 3-day inspection period for return. I will go ahead and share what I have learned just getting started myself. I have been strongly encouraged not to deal with anyone offering wares online that does not agree to an inspection period. There are a lot of refinished or reworked Lugers floating around priced as 100% original. This includes Russian reworks and VOPO reworks that are anything but original. There are also a fair number of high quality restorations around. Finally, there are some very high quality "fake" Navy Lugers that have been manufactured in recent years. The only way to really tell what you have is to have a chance to examine the Luger hands-on or have good quality digital photos to examine. Also, no matter how you look at it, a restocking fee of $1000 is not a good thing! I think a lot of board members will agree that that is a red flag from the start. That along with the lack of any holster wear raised a huge red flag with me. Others can correct me if I am wrong, but the Lugers that have seen use do have some holster wear on the side plate. That is what I have been told is one tell tale sign that the gun may have been refinished. For an 85 year old gun, this one looked too good. If you are interested, I would contact the seller and ensure that you can indeed have a 3-day inspection without any restocking fee. Try to have someone knowlegable available to verify that it is what is purported to be. Good luck and welcome to the board.

10-26-2004, 09:52 PM	#26
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	gunsndogs, Please don't misinterpret my comments to Pete, Malcolm or TomA as down playing the integrety and knowlege of these gentlemen. Both Pete and TomA are valuable contributers to this forum. Malcolms posts were excellent common sense thoughts. All the comments made by these gentlemen should be taken as 'Luger Buying 101' and should be read by all newbies as to how to buy a Luger on the internet and even elsewhere. My comments may have sounded a bit more negative than I wanted them to sound like. Its just that recently I have seen and handled a spat of unusually good Lugers in private collections. These Lugers don't see daylight very often and are very expensive because of their rarity and condition. So I have a momentary disposition to not rule out a Luger simply because it looks too minty. But minty guns are usually well known by collectors who wait in line for the seller to give even the slightest hint of selling. So a true minty Luger ususally doesn't last long enough to make it to an internet auction. With that said, the comments made by the above mentioned gentlemen should be heeded as good lessons to be remembered. Minty Lugers on the internet should be viewed with some skeptism. The pictures of this particular navy were too glary and there wasn't enough of them to tell if the gun is a well done, but much cheaper, restored gun. The sellers description also left a lot to be desired. The second navy Luger that you mentioned (I think that it was the 1906 navy) had much a better description and better pictures. The sellers write up was 95+% accurate. But this gun was previously mentioned and commented on in a different topic under Navy Lugers. Big Norm

10-27-2004, 07:36 PM	#27
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Received some emails from the seller. They are convinced it is totally original and authentic. Said a few local collectors (i.e. not luger collectors, per se...) have seen the gun and also swear it is not refinished. If I were personally interested...I would find out where the gun shop is located and possibly travel in person to see before I buy. At a minimum; I would ask the seller to send more detailed photos, as I suggested in my earlier posting. And I would want them to clarify, in writing their inspection policy and if that 30% restock fee is in effect or not for this piece... Here is the policy from the ad...sure sounds like they want to keep $ 1200 if you return the gun : " **USED FIREARMS: 3 DAY INSPECTION PERIOD ONLY! ITEM(s) MUST BE RETURNED IN AN UNALTERED CONDITION FOR ANY CONSIDERATION FOR ANY TYPE OF REFUND (NO EXCEPTIONS)A 30% RESTOCKING FEE MAY BE APPLIED FOR ANY RETURNS. ALL SHIPPING, HANDLING, INSURANCE IS NON-REFUNDABLE " One last thing I did not like about this piece (if original finish)...most 1916 or 1917 Navy pieces I have seen have some unique machining lines running in the recessed "ear" sections of the frame. This one does not appear to have these...leading me to my conclusion it was reworked. Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

10-27-2004, 08:21 PM	#28
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	gentlemen, gentlemen, gentlemen, The gun is a very well done restoration. It has been blasted with glass beads to remove surface imperfections and then carefully rust blued/strawed. It is a re-do, pure and simple. Tom A.

10-27-2004, 09:34 PM	#29
larry User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Michigan Posts: 106 Thanks: 26 Thanked 15 Times in 8 Posts	A 78 year old Luger in factory new condition? Even if you didn't know anything about Lugers it would seem to me that simple logic would question this Luger. larry

10-28-2004, 12:59 PM	#31
larry User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Michigan Posts: 106 Thanks: 26 Thanked 15 Times in 8 Posts	John You pegged me. I have learned so much from you guys and check the Navy Luger section every day. Still hope to meet you one of these days. I would like to check out your 08 and compare it to mine. Ours are only a few numbers apart. Keep up the good work. Many thanks larry

10-30-2004, 02:54 PM	#32
gunsndogs User Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Great insight from everyone! I have been doing my share of reading and making phone calls. I called a well known gunsmith in my area. I asked him if I could pick his brain about Navy Lugers. Here are some pointers he gave me: 1) First never never clean your Luger grips with Kerosene or anything like that. These are wood grips not firewood he said (I hope it is o.k. to repeat that advice he told me) If you want to clean them he suggest that you find a "qualified" & "reputable" gunsmith in your area and go see him about how to have it done. 2) To spot a fake, rework, etc from a photograph is not an accepted practice. The reason being that some people who produce fakes will make them look the way you want them to look authentic. Example: should have certain marks, wear patters, etc. So these people add them to the guns to make them appear more authentic and desirable to you the buyer. You should be very leery if the gun has what appears as "normal" wear patters...because most good fakes have had these marks or wear patterns. 3) Most Lugers were: either rust blue or dip blue depending on the year of the Luger. In late 1937 Mauser decided to stop rust bluing Lugers as a means to speed up production, as dip bluing was faster but less durable. In either case the finish needs to be the original finish appropriate for the period. So to tell a fake you can look inside the interior frame of the gun. Inside surfaces of a rust blued piece are in the white and the inside surfaces of a salt blued piece are blued. This is also one way to tell if a Navy Luger has been reblued or not. (This only works if the firearm was originally done by these methods & within the time frame) O.k. I have copied the information from the posting of the Navy Luger: They do offer a 3 day inspection for used firearms (see below). RARE FIND! Mint Condition 1916 Dated Navy All matching Numbers Including Magazine. NOTE: BUYER IS RESPONSIBLE FOR ALL SHIPPING, HANDLING, INSURANCE, AND TAX. (SHIPPING, HANDLING, INSURANCE IS NON-REFUNDABLE) USED FIREARMS: 3 DAY INSPECTION PERIOD ONLY! ITEM(s) MUST BE RETURNED IN AN UNALTERED CONDITION FOR ANY CONSIDERATION FOR ANY TYPE OF REFUND (NO EXCEPTIONS) A 30% RESTOCKING FEE MAY BE APPLIED FOR ANY RETURNS. ALL SHIPPING, HANDLING, INSURANCE IS NON-REFUNDABLE **NEW FIREARMS: ALL SALES FINAL WITH MANUFACTURES WARRANTY ONLY. WE WILL APPLY A 30% RESTOCKING FEE FOR ALL RETURNS. ALL SHIPPING, HANDLING, INSURANCE IS NON-REFUNDABLE (BTW: Most mail order companies these days charge you S&H. Depending on the carrier, insurance may or may not be mandatory. Restocking fees too for returned items) Gun Broker isn't just for the home seller anymore. Tons of companies list inventory for sale on these auction sites. They are getting more money & people viewing them, then they would at gun shows and at local auctions. This is only my opinion. I don't like to see people getting a bad rap when they cannot be heard & defend themselves. I have no particular talent. I am merely inquisitive. -Albert Einstein

10-30-2004, 05:08 PM	#33
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Bernie, I did send the Gun Broker seller an invite to the Luger Forum. Suspect they did log on and read the discussion about their pistol. This was obvious from one of their replies to me, in off-forum private emails, about the discussion. But I think they decided not to "join" the on-line discussion about this Navy. I was hoping they would take the list of additional photos I suggested a prospective buyer should ask for in my previous posting and take the photos and update their auction ad to "convince" buyers and other looky-lou's that their Navy is an original, factory finish. They did not take the "hint"... p.s. A bunch of expert refinishers that are passing off their reworks as origial have certainly mastered the art of redoing a rust blue job while leaving the original "in-the-white" interior of the gun's frame as such. The presence of an "in-the-white" frame interior, by itself, cannot be the only factor one uses to determine an original piece from a rework. Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

10-30-2004, 05:54 PM	#34
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	All, "The presence of an "in-the-white" frame interior, by itself, cannot be the only factor one uses to determine an original piece from a rework." Lord were it so..... Guys, do your flipping homework or pay BIG tuition bills at Luger U. Tom A.

10-31-2004, 08:47 AM	#35
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,769 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	I like the part about kerosene.

12-12-2004, 12:48 PM	#36
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Another "in-the-white" frame interior on what appears, to me, a restoration : http://www.phoenixinvestmentarms.com/06commnav1.htm

12-13-2004, 05:59 PM	#39
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Gents, Note the size of the font for the number 3 under the barrel. Likewise note the strength, dare I say blatentness of the straw? Come on guys, give an old soldier a break. $12K? The only example in the English Language when two positives equal a negative: "Yeah, right!" Tom A.

12-15-2004, 11:58 PM	#40
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Not much left of the BUG proofs or the C/M proof or the calibre stamping on the barrel...serial number fonts look odd, too...