New acqusistion 1908 from isolation - Page 3

CAP Black · 03-12-2017, 02:28 PM

Back to my stock (picture attached). I notice that in the Gortz - Sturgess books, Vol. III, Page 1325 there is a picture of a stock also on page 1324 not of walnut grain wood. On 1325 are the words: "very rarely the discs may be made of brass rather steel. I am thinking that my stock may be a little on the rare side. I am glad that I didn't part with it for $ 250.00
Thanks
Jack

lugerholsterrepair · 03-12-2017, 02:53 PM

OK Jack, let's cut to the chase here. Gently screw out one of the stock attaching screws and let's have a look. That should tell us with little doubt what it is.

m1903a3 · 03-12-2017, 04:47 PM

While Görtz and Sturgess is arguably the gold standard for Luger information, it is by no means infallible. I keep the electronic version on my computer and refer to it frequently. But it does have some errors, and includes some information based on fakes and/or forgeries.

Many of the leading Navy Parabellum collectors have participated in this thread, and I think it safe to say so far none of them believe your stock is an original one. I have a couple of originals, and have looked at/handled a good many more. There are some differences that seem obvious to me, but I will leave it to others to see if they concur.

1. Görtz and Sturgess not withstanding, I do not believe ANY original stocks had brass disks. I have seen a couple that looked fairly yellow or brassy, but that is from dried oil (probably boiled linseed) tinting them a bit. On the other hand, there most certainly have been replicas made that use brass disks.

2. The radius of the curve where the stock is cut away for the toe of the holster is smaller on an original than on yours, resulting in the arc interecting the top and bottom edges further from the attaching end.

3. The originals have a much less pronounced curve at the heel and toe, those corners look more square on an original.

m1903a3 · 03-12-2017, 05:05 PM

An original, unissued, stock

lugerholsterrepair · 03-12-2017, 05:20 PM

Görtz and Sturgess not withstanding, I do not believe ANY original stocks had brass disks. I wouldn't touch a stock with a brass disk thinking it to be original.

I notice that in the Gortz - Sturgess books, Vol. III, Page 1325 there is a picture of a stock also on page 1324 not of walnut grain wood. NONE of the original Imperial era stocks are of walnut grain wood. This is an important distinction. They are made of EUROPEAN walnut. Nothing to do with the American conception of walnut grain wood. EUROPEAN walnut is a lighter yellowish/brown with some swirls. I have taken leather off of original stocks many times and the wood hidden for a century is quite light in color. It darkens over 100 years. it is NOT speckled like maple.

Norme · 03-12-2017, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CAP Black

Back to my stock (picture attached). I notice that in the Gortz - Sturgess books, Vol. III, Page 1325 there is a picture of a stock also on page 1324 not of walnut grain wood. On 1325 are the words: "very rarely the discs may be made of brass rather steel. I am thinking that my stock may be a little on the rare side. I am glad that I didn't part with it for $ 250.00
Thanks
Jack

Hi Jack,
I have to tell you that I'm one of those annoying people that never lets a reference go by unchecked. What makes you think that the stock pictured on page 1324 in Görtz/Sturgess Vol.III, green edition, is "not of walnut grain wood"? Also, while it is true that Sturgess states that "very rarely the discs may be made of brass rather than steel", it's significant that he couldn't find a single example to illustrate his point.
No one is trying to talk you into selling a valuable original Navy stock at a bargain price, the very suggestion is an insult to the forum members who have merely tried to help you.
Norm

CAP Black · 03-12-2017, 09:16 PM

Norme:
I appreciate what everyone has advised me on this matter; really I do. As I always have. I am not a Luger expert and not an expert at researching Luger information. Also, I don't know of the above mentioned authors methods. But, I think I am like other novices in that I hear "nevers" and look in my best resource materials and find a "rarely."
I will just hush up about it.
Thanks
Jack

lugerholsterrepair · 03-12-2017, 09:51 PM

Jack, It's a "discussion" board. No need to just hush up about it. Just discuss it! Did you take out a stock iron screw? (see post #42) That will tell you something..

cirelaw · 03-13-2017, 10:58 AM

Definitly not brass!

m1903a3 · 03-13-2017, 12:29 PM

Eric

Would you please post full length side views like mine?

Thanks

Mike

Mac Cat · 03-13-2017, 12:47 PM

It's a great set - worthy of proper photographs!
The stock would be a surprise if it's authentic.
The marks are hard to find and not consistently applied, even more than holsters.

We are all very interested in the pistol markings.
Topside both flanks.

cirelaw · 03-13-2017, 01:13 PM

At your request! I believe I purchased this one from George Anderson years ago!! Jerry did the leather work including duel black mag holder!! Tks to both my Heros!!

m1903a3 · 03-13-2017, 02:04 PM

Thanks Eric.

Jack: Compare the shape of yours to the pictures Eric and I posted. You can clearly see the differences I pointed out in my earlier message. Ignoring the disc metal completely, the stock itself is not quite the right shape.

The pistol is still beautiful, and a fine example of a 1908 Navy (I hate that name, since they were actually made in 1914!)

cirelaw · 03-13-2017, 02:24 PM

An Imperial and Weimer side by side~

m1903a3 · 03-13-2017, 05:12 PM

Actually, both Imperial. It's just that one continued to serve after 1918.

CAP Black · 03-13-2017, 05:13 PM

I have a screw out. What are the specs? Length, shoulder dimension, number of threads? It is roughly 39 mm in length and roughly 18 threads. The bottom of the head is squared off and the head is approx. 2 mm thick. Anything else?
Thanks
Jack

DonVoigt · 03-13-2017, 05:41 PM

Genuine screws are only threaded for a short distance on the end, long length of the screw body is not threaded.

18/39 = approx . metric pitch of 2mm, too coarse.

A picture would be quick to tell.

CAP Black · 03-13-2017, 06:58 PM

Light is not great but I got a decent picture. The bluing looks good.
Jack

DonVoigt · 03-13-2017, 07:56 PM

Jack,
that is not what I expect to see in an original screw; I just pulled one and it has only 3/16" threads on the end- a total of about 5-6 threads- which is typical of originals.

Aftermarket screws generally have threads like yours, and are sometimes threaded all the way from end to head.

lugerholsterrepair · 03-13-2017, 08:07 PM

Jack, Bad news! This screw is representative and kin of the other faults found on this stock and is pretty much the proverbial last nail in the coffin. Hey..at least you can rest easy now. You know with no doubt what it is.

03-12-2017, 02:28 PM	#41
CAP Black User Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Fairmont, WV Right here in Mountaineer country and God's country Posts: 767 Thanks: 100 Thanked 168 Times in 96 Posts	Back to my stock (picture attached). I notice that in the Gortz - Sturgess books, Vol. III, Page 1325 there is a picture of a stock also on page 1324 not of walnut grain wood. On 1325 are the words: "very rarely the discs may be made of brass rather steel. I am thinking that my stock may be a little on the rare side. I am glad that I didn't part with it for $ 250.00 Thanks Jack Attached Thumbnails

03-12-2017, 04:47 PM	#43
m1903a3 User Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Virginia Posts: 197 Thanks: 26 Thanked 315 Times in 112 Posts	While Görtz and Sturgess is arguably the gold standard for Luger information, it is by no means infallible. I keep the electronic version on my computer and refer to it frequently. But it does have some errors, and includes some information based on fakes and/or forgeries. Many of the leading Navy Parabellum collectors have participated in this thread, and I think it safe to say so far none of them believe your stock is an original one. I have a couple of originals, and have looked at/handled a good many more. There are some differences that seem obvious to me, but I will leave it to others to see if they concur. 1. Görtz and Sturgess not withstanding, I do not believe ANY original stocks had brass disks. I have seen a couple that looked fairly yellow or brassy, but that is from dried oil (probably boiled linseed) tinting them a bit. On the other hand, there most certainly have been replicas made that use brass disks. 2. The radius of the curve where the stock is cut away for the toe of the holster is smaller on an original than on yours, resulting in the arc interecting the top and bottom edges further from the attaching end. 3. The originals have a much less pronounced curve at the heel and toe, those corners look more square on an original. __________________ - Mike Life member: NRA, OVMS, VGCA Member: NAPCA, N-SSA(Veteran) Si vis pacem, para bellum

03-12-2017, 05:05 PM	#44
m1903a3 User Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Virginia Posts: 197 Thanks: 26 Thanked 315 Times in 112 Posts	An original, unissued, stock Attached Thumbnails __________________ - Mike Life member: NRA, OVMS, VGCA Member: NAPCA, N-SSA(Veteran) Si vis pacem, para bellum

03-12-2017, 05:20 PM	#45
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,760 Thanks: 4,848 Thanked 3,099 Times in 1,426 Posts	Görtz and Sturgess not withstanding, I do not believe ANY original stocks had brass disks. I wouldn't touch a stock with a brass disk thinking it to be original. I notice that in the Gortz - Sturgess books, Vol. III, Page 1325 there is a picture of a stock also on page 1324 not of walnut grain wood. NONE of the original Imperial era stocks are of walnut grain wood. This is an important distinction. They are made of EUROPEAN walnut. Nothing to do with the American conception of walnut grain wood. EUROPEAN walnut is a lighter yellowish/brown with some swirls. I have taken leather off of original stocks many times and the wood hidden for a century is quite light in color. It darkens over 100 years. it is NOT speckled like maple. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

03-12-2017, 09:51 PM	#48
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,760 Thanks: 4,848 Thanked 3,099 Times in 1,426 Posts	Jack, It's a "discussion" board. No need to just hush up about it. Just discuss it! Did you take out a stock iron screw? (see post #42) That will tell you something.. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

03-12-2017, 02:53 PM	#42
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,760 Thanks: 4,848 Thanked 3,099 Times in 1,426 Posts	OK Jack, let's cut to the chase here. Gently screw out one of the stock attaching screws and let's have a look. That should tell us with little doubt what it is. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

03-12-2017, 09:16 PM	#47
CAP Black User Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Fairmont, WV Right here in Mountaineer country and God's country Posts: 767 Thanks: 100 Thanked 168 Times in 96 Posts	Norme: I appreciate what everyone has advised me on this matter; really I do. As I always have. I am not a Luger expert and not an expert at researching Luger information. Also, I don't know of the above mentioned authors methods. But, I think I am like other novices in that I hear "nevers" and look in my best resource materials and find a "rarely." I will just hush up about it. Thanks Jack

03-13-2017, 10:58 AM	#49
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	Definitly not brass! Attached Thumbnails

03-13-2017, 12:29 PM	#50
m1903a3 User Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Virginia Posts: 197 Thanks: 26 Thanked 315 Times in 112 Posts	Eric Would you please post full length side views like mine? Thanks Mike __________________ - Mike Life member: NRA, OVMS, VGCA Member: NAPCA, N-SSA(Veteran) Si vis pacem, para bellum

03-13-2017, 12:47 PM	#51
Mac Cat Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 670 Thanks: 2,009 Thanked 542 Times in 292 Posts	It's a great set - worthy of proper photographs! The stock would be a surprise if it's authentic. The marks are hard to find and not consistently applied, even more than holsters. We are all very interested in the pistol markings. Topside both flanks.

03-13-2017, 01:13 PM	#52
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	Whole view! At your request! I believe I purchased this one from George Anderson years ago!! Jerry did the leather work including duel black mag holder!! Tks to both my Heros!! Attached Thumbnails

03-13-2017, 02:04 PM	#53
m1903a3 User Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Virginia Posts: 197 Thanks: 26 Thanked 315 Times in 112 Posts	Thanks Eric. Jack: Compare the shape of yours to the pictures Eric and I posted. You can clearly see the differences I pointed out in my earlier message. Ignoring the disc metal completely, the stock itself is not quite the right shape. The pistol is still beautiful, and a fine example of a 1908 Navy (I hate that name, since they were actually made in 1914!) __________________ - Mike Life member: NRA, OVMS, VGCA Member: NAPCA, N-SSA(Veteran) Si vis pacem, para bellum

03-13-2017, 02:24 PM	#54
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	An Imperial and Weimer side by side~ Attached Thumbnails

03-13-2017, 05:12 PM	#55
m1903a3 User Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Virginia Posts: 197 Thanks: 26 Thanked 315 Times in 112 Posts	Actually, both Imperial. It's just that one continued to serve after 1918. __________________ - Mike Life member: NRA, OVMS, VGCA Member: NAPCA, N-SSA(Veteran) Si vis pacem, para bellum

03-13-2017, 05:13 PM	#56
CAP Black User Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Fairmont, WV Right here in Mountaineer country and God's country Posts: 767 Thanks: 100 Thanked 168 Times in 96 Posts	I have a screw out. What are the specs? Length, shoulder dimension, number of threads? It is roughly 39 mm in length and roughly 18 threads. The bottom of the head is squared off and the head is approx. 2 mm thick. Anything else? Thanks Jack Last edited by CAP Black; 03-13-2017 at 05:23 PM. Reason: better measurements

03-13-2017, 05:41 PM	#57
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,677 Thanks: 1,439 Thanked 4,347 Times in 2,038 Posts	Genuine screws are only threaded for a short distance on the end, long length of the screw body is not threaded. 18/39 = approx . metric pitch of 2mm, too coarse. A picture would be quick to tell. __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

03-13-2017, 06:58 PM	#58
CAP Black User Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Fairmont, WV Right here in Mountaineer country and God's country Posts: 767 Thanks: 100 Thanked 168 Times in 96 Posts	Light is not great but I got a decent picture. The bluing looks good. Jack Attached Thumbnails Last edited by CAP Black; 03-13-2017 at 06:59 PM. Reason: Add some words

03-13-2017, 07:56 PM	#59
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,677 Thanks: 1,439 Thanked 4,347 Times in 2,038 Posts	Jack, that is not what I expect to see in an original screw; I just pulled one and it has only 3/16" threads on the end- a total of about 5-6 threads- which is typical of originals. Aftermarket screws generally have threads like yours, and are sometimes threaded all the way from end to head. __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

03-13-2017, 08:07 PM	#60
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,760 Thanks: 4,848 Thanked 3,099 Times in 1,426 Posts	Jack, Bad news! This screw is representative and kin of the other faults found on this stock and is pretty much the proverbial last nail in the coffin. Hey..at least you can rest easy now. You know with no doubt what it is. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."