Fake Navy Toggle

[Big Norm]

Here is a good example of a fake 1906 navy toggle currently on Ebay.

http://cgi.ebay.com/LUGER-ORIGINAL-1...QQcmdZViewItem

Those toggle knobs are almost straight out of pictures posted on this forum.
Big Norm

PS. Sorry guys I couldn't copy the address right, but the item number is 300100770571

[Ron Wood]

Gee Norm, I don't know. It has been refinished/restored, but it looks kinda good to me. The sides of the toggle knobs are not nearly as flat or finely checkered as the repros. But I could be fooled.

[Tomathvl]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...100770571&rd=1

[the gunman]

I know the gentleman selling this item. A very honest and reputable fellow collector.

[Pete Ebbink]

Navy rear sight sure looks to have the right profile.

[Navy]

I think it is legit.

Tom A.

[vtwoodchuck]

BIG NORM, I'm the one selling it and I think you should make sure before you call something fake. I sent this assy. along with the bbl. assy to Hugh Clark to check the head space and if he sees this thread I would like his opinion. Also, I would be willing to send this to who ever is the most expert on this. If it is fake I'll pay shipping both ways and if it is real you repay me the shipping both ways. I have noticed on these boards that some are always quick to judge. Put your money where your mouth is. By the way, Thank you for those not so quick to judge. Doug

[vtwoodchuck]

BIG NORM, Look on the "Luger Pistols Gunboard" under 1900-1918 P.04 Navy Lugers. Find my post dated 1/19/07 titled "NAVY SIGHT COMMENTS?" I wanted to make sure it was ok before selling it so posted pictures and asked for comments. A Mr. Val Berman (valbehaved) commented saying it was legit. No other comments. Doug

[Big Norm]

I keep a picture of Ron Woods description of repro navy rear toggles on my desk. A comparision of that picture to the picture supplied in a previous forum discussion(see below) makes the toggle KNOBS look repro to me .

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...threadid=16554

Perhaps someone more adept with computers then me could pull up the picture supplied in that thread of the repro and then pull up the picture supplied on Ebay and compare the KNOBS. They looked the same to me. The surface of the KNOBS look very flat and the edges look sharper than the edges of the knobs on the original navy rear toggle.

Going strictly on my memory, the serrations seemed to be longer on the Ebay pictures than on either of the pictures (original or repro) in the forums thread. But I am not able to pull up the Ebay auction, for some reason, so I am not able to double check myself. So I am basing my opinion on this thread only on the KNOBS.

I usually look at the KNOBS on the navy Lugers because, at a gun show, it is difficult to actually see the differences in the serrations and their heights along with the rounded contour. Sometimes a seller doesn't have another navy to compare with. But the flatness of the surface of the KNOBS seems to be an easy givaway.

vtwoodchuck,
I sent you an email via Ebay and you have not responded to it as of this date. But I guess that this discussion will do the job.
Big Norm

[Lugerdoc]

Pete et al, The milled repro Navy rear toggle links with 2 position rear sights that I get from Germany & sell for $400, don't have as many serrations forward of the push button as the one that you show. The Cast (Sarco type -- my price $200) one do. Lugerdoc

[Lugerdoc]

Pete et al, The milled repro Navy rear toggle links with 2 position rear sights that I get from Germany & sell for $400, don't have as many serrations forward of the push button as the one that you show. The Cast (Sarco type -- my price $200) one do. Lugerdoc

[Big Norm]

Lets see if I can do this.
0456_12JPG.jpg (from Ebay)
navy_sight_compare.jpg (from lugerforum)
Big Norm

Whoops, doesn't look like I can do that.

[Tomathvl]

Comparison posted by tracyp in referenced Norm post .



http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...opy1_copy2.jpg

[Pete Ebbink]

eBay auction photo :

[Tomathvl]

I see Norm's point. The toggle labeled original does not look like the toggle being sold. I checked my Navy and it has a toggle just like the one being sold. Are there differences in toggles for earlier and later Navies?
If not something wrong with comparison photo.
Tom

[Pete Ebbink]

The little flat portion of the abutment behind the toggle knob is also something to look for in Navy toggles.



The eBay offering looks like it has this "flat" as well...

Having said this...take a look at a 1917 Navy the Simpsons LTD folks are selling and call a "fake"...

You can zoom in on the Simpson site photos and see the toggle knob details and the rear sight details...

http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_in...oducts_id=2855

Maybe some mechanics in the USA are making (from scratch...) a much better "repro" than is available from one source in Germany which the repro sample in the photo comparison, above, that Ron Wood did some time ago...

Maybe the USA makers have gotten the rear sight profile right but not the dicing and radius pattern on the knobs ???

BTW...here is the posting and discussion Doug mentioned over on Jan Still's Gun Boards :

http://luger.gunboards.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10390

I have moved two of Doug's photos from the G-B's over here to the LF for a better look :

[vtwoodchuck]

Hi Again, This pistol, all except the stripped frame came from Uruguay last winter. The grips, trigger, grip safety lever are numbered 26. The side plate, take down lever, and other small parts are not numbered. It is within the serial number range of the 50 Navy lugers sold to Uruguay in the 1930's. I think DWM put the Lugers together from parts available at the time. The frame is the long frame with the safety area marked in the lower position. As I said, I would be glad to send it to an expert this board recomends to have it checked out. I know it came from Uruguay as I am the one who received it from there. More pictures are available if you e-mail me at vtwoodchuck@hotmail.com including the picture of the pistol before it was stripped. Doug

[John Sabato]

Gentlemen,

This is an excellent discussion on the techical aspects of the Navy Luger... I would think that should be possible to be discussed without tempers or egos being a factor.

[Tomathvl]

I spoke too soon. I took the 1906 Navy out of the safe and looked at it in good light; it has more of a chamfer than I originally thought. It looks more like the one labeled original.
Tom

[Pete Ebbink]

Current RIA auction house Lot # 5196 is another "made-up" 1917 Navy...their words...

http://www.rockislandauction.com/vie...=40&iid=196593