Navy Rear Sights... - Page 2

Pete Ebbink · 07-09-2006, 01:39 PM

These two do look legit, although maybe reblued.

One is up to over $ 700 and the auction will close in a few hours, the other one is around $ 400 with some bidding time left.

drbuster · 07-09-2006, 02:50 PM

What really bothers me about these Navy rear sight auctions is where will they end up? I try to make note of the two digits on the rear and file them into memory. If one were to "manufacture" a 1917 Navy, the rear sight would seem to me to be the hardest to make in the Waffenfabrik USA shop. I wonder if the members realize how many machining processes are required to make this part? The six inch barrel is easy to acquire and stamping and/or pantographing is a very doable task. I guess all attention is now being drawn to making wide flanged rear toggle pins. That would be more difficult than machining the seat for the wide flange on the rear of the receiver. It may be a good idea for folks like Dwight Gruber or Ron Wood to compile a serial number database of authentic war time Navies just to see if a duplicate serialed piece turns up.

Pete Ebbink · 07-11-2006, 12:51 PM

Doc,

I suspect the Navy Cabal guys (i.e. Tom, Leo, and Derek) might be hesitate to publish their Navy serial number database in today's current boosting environment.

If I were a booster and got a hold of such a comprehensive list, I would not chose to pick a number of an existing, reported piece...but rather I would chose a number in the "gap" of numbers not yet recorded.

Big Norm · 07-13-2006, 08:50 AM

Ron
Outstanding display of the differences. The only problem is that, during the emotion packed time of deciding to put down big bucks for a navy Luger, many of your well pointed out differences between the real and the counterfeited rear toggle sight could easily be missed. Only the checkering of the pull back knob could be relatively easily noticed. Everything else would require a side by side, close comparision with a known 'real' rear toggle.
Big Norm

drbuster · 07-13-2006, 09:14 AM

Pete, your logic is truly of an engineering mind and cannot be questioned! Your point is VERY well taken!

John Sabato · 07-13-2006, 09:24 AM

Hey Norm,

If you would break down and buy a new color inkjet printer like I have been encouraging you to do for years, you could actually print out photos like Ron's excellent comparison and keep it with you at shows... when you find a Navy... For less than the cost of a non-Navy Luger shooter, you could even get yourself a small laptop with a broadband network card and carry your internet access and the whole Lugerforum photo archives with you at shows...

Get one of your many girlfriends to buy it for you

Big Norm · 07-16-2006, 01:03 AM

Hey John! My so called many girl friends are too busy spending my money on themselves or trying to get me to do it for them. (Hee! Hee!). I do have a color printer/scanner. A new HP 1600. Some day I am going to figure out how the thingy works. The dog gone thing is pretty tricky.

Someone asked what someone might do with the navy rear toggle. Well I just got back from the Ohio Gun Collectors Assoc. (OGCA) show in Wilmington, Ohio. Doug Smith and a bunch of us were laughing at a made up Luger that had a 16 inch or so long barrel with a counterfeit navy rear toggle on it. Funny looking thing. But thanks to Ron Woods excellent pictures with explainations, I was able to take my time and look at the counterfeit rear toggle that was on the gun. A blind man could just feel the difference on that toggle knob and see that it was fake. The top of that knob is noticably flatter than you would find on a 'real' navy rear toggle. But if someone wants to make up a gun that they are going to have some fun shooting and you have the bucko's to buy a navy rear toggle, this is what you can do.

Just a little off topic, I missed out on getting a 1902 Luger carbine at the OGCA show and felt bad about it until I picked up a very nice Sattler Lief.Verb.Im Subm.Amt - 1918 Leipzig artillery holster. To top it off, after talking to the guy, the seller said that he might have the cup and straps at home. We made arrangements to meet some time in the near future. Sorry for this off topic mention, but sometimes a guy has to brag when he has the chance. I quickly forgot about the 1902 carbine. It really pays to be a real good looking guy with a great personality. Doug Smith really ate his heart out when he saw the holster. (Hee! Hee!). He probably would have tried to sell it to me for $10,000. (Just kidding, but not by much)
Big Norm

sambuscemi · 07-19-2006, 10:06 PM

Drbuster: Here in the Machinist's Heaven of the Automotive Capital making a wide flanged Navy rear axle or machining the receiver's rear stepped axle seat larger to accept a wider flange is only a matter of a few minutes with the right machinery - machinery so easily accessible in my neck of the woods. It is inexpensive and extremely easy to do. Not as difficult as it may appear to be.

drbuster · 07-20-2006, 09:54 AM

I guess one who is comtemplating the purchase of a 1914 model Navy needs to get it from a knowledgable seller,needs to have seen many of these things, and to have some luck as well. A good fake with all the right things done, I guess, could not be definitely distinguished from the real thing.

maddog350gt · 07-20-2006, 02:42 PM

Hi all,

I am sure you all know that repo Navy sights are available from Sarco for around $225. They are also selling the Navy barrels in both standard Navy (high front sight base) and P08 style (low front sight base), I can't recall the price off the top of my head, but reasonable. I started seeing these in the Shotgun News about 3 or 4 months ago and started seeing more "Navy" sights on e-bay in the last 2-3 months. Some of the fakes have gone for much more than the Sarco price. Very good return on investment for the un-scrupulous. I would look vary hard at any e-bay Navy sights; I know legit sights do come up for sale but as you already know a lot of repos become original when they get to e-bay.

Bob M.

Pete Ebbink · 08-04-2006, 02:34 PM

Some subtle and not so subtle differences in this area on the original that the repro does not show :

07-13-2006, 09:24 AM	#26
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Hey Norm, If you would break down and buy a new color inkjet printer like I have been encouraging you to do for years, you could actually print out photos like Ron's excellent comparison and keep it with you at shows... when you find a Navy... For less than the cost of a non-Navy Luger shooter, you could even get yourself a small laptop with a broadband network card and carry your internet access and the whole Lugerforum photo archives with you at shows... Get one of your many girlfriends to buy it for you __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

07-09-2006, 01:39 PM	#21
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	These two do look legit, although maybe reblued. One is up to over $ 700 and the auction will close in a few hours, the other one is around $ 400 with some bidding time left.

07-09-2006, 02:50 PM	#22
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	What really bothers me about these Navy rear sight auctions is where will they end up? I try to make note of the two digits on the rear and file them into memory. If one were to "manufacture" a 1917 Navy, the rear sight would seem to me to be the hardest to make in the Waffenfabrik USA shop. I wonder if the members realize how many machining processes are required to make this part? The six inch barrel is easy to acquire and stamping and/or pantographing is a very doable task. I guess all attention is now being drawn to making wide flanged rear toggle pins. That would be more difficult than machining the seat for the wide flange on the rear of the receiver. It may be a good idea for folks like Dwight Gruber or Ron Wood to compile a serial number database of authentic war time Navies just to see if a duplicate serialed piece turns up.

07-11-2006, 12:51 PM	#23
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Doc, I suspect the Navy Cabal guys (i.e. Tom, Leo, and Derek) might be hesitate to publish their Navy serial number database in today's current boosting environment. If I were a booster and got a hold of such a comprehensive list, I would not chose to pick a number of an existing, reported piece...but rather I would chose a number in the "gap" of numbers not yet recorded.

07-13-2006, 08:50 AM	#24
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Ron Outstanding display of the differences. The only problem is that, during the emotion packed time of deciding to put down big bucks for a navy Luger, many of your well pointed out differences between the real and the counterfeited rear toggle sight could easily be missed. Only the checkering of the pull back knob could be relatively easily noticed. Everything else would require a side by side, close comparision with a known 'real' rear toggle. Big Norm

07-13-2006, 09:14 AM	#25
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Pete, your logic is truly of an engineering mind and cannot be questioned! Your point is VERY well taken!

07-16-2006, 01:03 AM	#27
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Hey John! My so called many girl friends are too busy spending my money on themselves or trying to get me to do it for them. (Hee! Hee!). I do have a color printer/scanner. A new HP 1600. Some day I am going to figure out how the thingy works. The dog gone thing is pretty tricky. Someone asked what someone might do with the navy rear toggle. Well I just got back from the Ohio Gun Collectors Assoc. (OGCA) show in Wilmington, Ohio. Doug Smith and a bunch of us were laughing at a made up Luger that had a 16 inch or so long barrel with a counterfeit navy rear toggle on it. Funny looking thing. But thanks to Ron Woods excellent pictures with explainations, I was able to take my time and look at the counterfeit rear toggle that was on the gun. A blind man could just feel the difference on that toggle knob and see that it was fake. The top of that knob is noticably flatter than you would find on a 'real' navy rear toggle. But if someone wants to make up a gun that they are going to have some fun shooting and you have the bucko's to buy a navy rear toggle, this is what you can do. Just a little off topic, I missed out on getting a 1902 Luger carbine at the OGCA show and felt bad about it until I picked up a very nice Sattler Lief.Verb.Im Subm.Amt - 1918 Leipzig artillery holster. To top it off, after talking to the guy, the seller said that he might have the cup and straps at home. We made arrangements to meet some time in the near future. Sorry for this off topic mention, but sometimes a guy has to brag when he has the chance. I quickly forgot about the 1902 carbine. It really pays to be a real good looking guy with a great personality. Doug Smith really ate his heart out when he saw the holster. (Hee! Hee!). He probably would have tried to sell it to me for $10,000. (Just kidding, but not by much) Big Norm

07-19-2006, 10:06 PM	#28
sambuscemi User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Michigan Posts: 192 Thanks: 0 Thanked 15 Times in 4 Posts	Drbuster: Here in the Machinist's Heaven of the Automotive Capital making a wide flanged Navy rear axle or machining the receiver's rear stepped axle seat larger to accept a wider flange is only a matter of a few minutes with the right machinery - machinery so easily accessible in my neck of the woods. It is inexpensive and extremely easy to do. Not as difficult as it may appear to be.

07-20-2006, 09:54 AM	#29
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	I guess one who is comtemplating the purchase of a 1914 model Navy needs to get it from a knowledgable seller,needs to have seen many of these things, and to have some luck as well. A good fake with all the right things done, I guess, could not be definitely distinguished from the real thing.

07-20-2006, 02:42 PM	#30
maddog350gt User Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Washougal WA Posts: 170 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Hi all, I am sure you all know that repo Navy sights are available from Sarco for around $225. They are also selling the Navy barrels in both standard Navy (high front sight base) and P08 style (low front sight base), I can't recall the price off the top of my head, but reasonable. I started seeing these in the Shotgun News about 3 or 4 months ago and started seeing more "Navy" sights on e-bay in the last 2-3 months. Some of the fakes have gone for much more than the Sarco price. Very good return on investment for the un-scrupulous. I would look vary hard at any e-bay Navy sights; I know legit sights do come up for sale but as you already know a lot of repos become original when they get to e-bay. Bob M.

08-04-2006, 02:34 PM	#31
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Some subtle and not so subtle differences in this area on the original that the repro does not show :