value of 1915 Luger (told it was WWI Luftwaffe)

George_F · 08-01-2002, 02:44 PM

Hello, I inherited a number of firearms from my father and am looking to insure them. Before he dies he pointed out a few that were of particular interest. He claimed that this 1915 Luger was a WWI Luftwaffe. As a point of note, my father was quite a credible source of knowledge having served with all the greats back at Aberdeen Proving Ground (Nelson, etc . . .) in the early 50's. He then went on to run his own business as a Forensic Firearms Examiner for >30 years. While he most certainly was not infallible I would tend to give him the benefit of the doubt. Sadly, my knowledge is nowehre near as comprehensive so I come to you learned folks to shed some light.

Anyhow, back to the pistol. It is in excellent condition (please excuse the absurd quality pictures from my digital camera - my good one is sadly on loan) with I would estimate 90%+ bluing and a crisp bore. The serial number is 20XX with 2 matching wood-bottom magazines, also marked 20XX. Also, I am curious about the number "8,82" on the frame of the pistol right below where the barrel fits. The holster is in good condition as well.
The marking on the rear of the holster are:
B.R. 16
11
3E
II

Is this indeed a Luftwaffe pistol (how would one know) and what would its value be so that I may insure it properly.

Thanks for all the help!!

George

George_F · 08-01-2002, 02:53 PM

Ooooof, thats what I get for not reading previous posts. Please disregard my question about the "8,82" marking as it was more thna adequately covered in one of the recent posts.

I also forgot to add what the proof markings were. It is a DWM manufacture and has the appropriate markings as listed on the "Proof Marks" page 2, number 15 under the Technical Information part of your site.

Sorry for the previous incomplete post.

George

Roadkill · 08-01-2002, 03:59 PM

Sir, welcome to the forum, the value of the pistol is in the $1200+ range, especially with the matching magazines and the holster. And that is conservative. Its a beautiful gun. Now here is the fun part. The holster could, and this isn't definite, have origonated with Bavarian Regiment/Reserve 16, 11 ?, 3rd Squadron, second company. This was also known as 16th Bavarian Reserve Infantrie Regiment List, named after the commander as was the custom in German units through WWII. It was more likely in the 16th Bavarian Reserve than WWI Luftwaffe. And since that is the unit from which Der Furher began his rise to tryanny its likely more collectable than the pistol and possibly be substantial in value. [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

RK

http://www.photosammler.de/Serien/list01e.htm

Heydrich · 08-01-2002, 06:12 PM

RK, that really piques the imagination, doesn’t it? Even the miniscule chance that the former owner may have shown this pistol to Hitler, or had it next to him on the table in a game of cards or such. Isn’t one possible interpretation, 16th Bavarian Reserve Regiment, 11th battalion? And I agree, the mere twinkling of a chance that it was in the same unit as Adolf should dramatically increase its value.

George_F · 08-02-2002, 02:17 AM

How very curious - of course there is no way to verify that this partcular Luger belongs to this holster. Truly I got some answers that I did not expect. Thanks for all the insights -- this story will make a great conversation piece to my kids (1 in the oven).

As an aside, I am very impressed by the quality of this forum and the knowledge herein. Does anyone have idea where I may find foums of similar quality for Broomhandle Mausers, Mannlicher or Steyr-Hahn pistols?

Thanks!

George

Roadkill · 08-02-2002, 09:36 AM

Sir, the odds of the pistol & holster remaining together are not as outlandish as might be expected.The overall situation is relevant. You have an excellent condition 1915 pistol with two matching magazines. This alone is not common. Then there is an excellent condition holster made for a specific unit in the right color and marked to a unit at that time. The German procurement system allowed units to obtain items from local authorized contractors for that specific unit. If it were a well used pistol in an excellent holster or excellent pistol in a worn holster it would be different. But the condition of both are parallel and the two matching magazines only adds to the postitive aspect. Where do you keep an extra magazine? In the holster. Pistol gets lost or reissued or holster destroyed the extra magazine is separated and now there is only the one in the pistol. Then the fact of your father obtaining it. It could be a US military authority bring back which he obtained. Definite? nope. Possible? yes. Check holster carefully. Some were serial numbered to the gun.

RK

Jan C Still · 08-02-2002, 01:31 PM

George
B.R.16 / 11 signifies Bavarian 16 Infanterie Regiment, perhaps the 11 signifies 11 Kompagnie.
The E. which signifies a cavalry eskadron is not compatable with the first infanterie markings.

In your holster photograph the B. looks more like a D. If this is the case the letters are compatable:

D.R.16 / 11 / 3.E. / II signifies Dragoon Regiment 16. , 1911, 3rd Eskadron. This is a common format for cavalry marked holsters.

Neither marking indicates Luftschiffer or Flieger which would contain an L. or F.

Perhaps your father had capture imformation that indicated Luftwaffe issue.

Such rigs in excellent condition with two origonal matching mags are very rare and worth a considerable premium.
Jan

max2cam · 08-02-2002, 10:07 PM

Road Kill's original observation was momentarily quite exciting, because wouldn't the future Fuehrer as a messenger or runner have been issued a handgun during his various exploits in the trenches???

Alas, Jan Still's subsequent observation is probably more accurate.

So much for romance...

wterrell · 08-02-2002, 10:31 PM

[quote]Does anyone have idea where I may find foums of similar quality for Broomhandle Mausers, Mannlicher or Steyr-Hahn pistols? <hr></blockquote>

LDegrelle, this forum is alive with interested members. Usually there is no two or three day wait for a reply to a query. I have not seen another forum such as this, but I have very few interests.
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

Freischütz · 08-02-2002, 10:47 PM

The posters are interested in most German/Austrian pistols. Off topic questions are welcome

George_F · 08-04-2002, 06:05 PM

Thanks for all the great insights. I like to pride myself as being pretty knowledgable about the firearms of WWI & WW2 -- but you guys are downright amazing.

I'll take another look at the holster when I get the chance and see about taking a better pic when I get my good digicam back.

Thnaks for all the replies.

George

lugerholsterrepair · 08-04-2002, 06:18 PM

George, I noticed in the photo you have a small leather belt thru the belt loops of your holster. This is not a great idea. You may want to rethink handling the holster with this , particularly if the pistol is in it. These belt loops on holsters as old as this one are quite fragile. If not the leather then the threads. Another thing, do not store the pistol in the holster. Leather holsters take in and release moisture. This is not healthy for your fine pistol. So far it seems to have been taken care of and I am sure you want to continue to be an excellent caretaker of this fine piece of history.

Recently a forum member presented a similar pistol to the forum and was offered $2500.00 by Mr. Brad Simpson. He is a dealer from Galesburg Il. Jerry Burney

LP08 · 08-07-2002, 02:15 AM

The pistol appears to be a standard issue WW1 1915 P08. Look on the front grip strap for any unit marking but if there is none there is no evidence that this was issued to the Luftwaffe. Perhaps some documents exist at your father's home or the museum that would confirm this. The holster looks almost identical to one I have that is marked to a Dragoon Regiment -- same manner, font and size marks between the belt loops. Mine, like yours is dated 1911 as indicated by the 11 on the back AND it is made of old Reichsrevolver holster parts. Yours looks like it might also be made of RR parts from the look of the front of the holster body (but the photo is not quite clear enough).

I may have a holster that accompanied yours. Your holster is in nice shape and is rare. Don't store the gun in it or stress the holster. Keep it just as it is.

Dave

George_F · 08-11-2002, 10:19 AM

Ah well, upon further examination it appears that the markings are indeed "D.R." instead of B.R. - a crease in the leather fooled me. Oh well -- at least I was able to find out more about the pedigree of this firearm.

Thnaks for all the info. I took some photos of some other items in the collection and will posty those later to see if any of you can shed some light on them for me.

Thanks again!

George

08-01-2002, 02:44 PM	#1
George_F User Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 30 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	value of 1915 Luger (told it was WWI Luftwaffe) Hello, I inherited a number of firearms from my father and am looking to insure them. Before he dies he pointed out a few that were of particular interest. He claimed that this 1915 Luger was a WWI Luftwaffe. As a point of note, my father was quite a credible source of knowledge having served with all the greats back at Aberdeen Proving Ground (Nelson, etc . . .) in the early 50's. He then went on to run his own business as a Forensic Firearms Examiner for >30 years. While he most certainly was not infallible I would tend to give him the benefit of the doubt. Sadly, my knowledge is nowehre near as comprehensive so I come to you learned folks to shed some light. Anyhow, back to the pistol. It is in excellent condition (please excuse the absurd quality pictures from my digital camera - my good one is sadly on loan) with I would estimate 90%+ bluing and a crisp bore. The serial number is 20XX with 2 matching wood-bottom magazines, also marked 20XX. Also, I am curious about the number "8,82" on the frame of the pistol right below where the barrel fits. The holster is in good condition as well. The marking on the rear of the holster are: B.R. 16 11 3E II Is this indeed a Luftwaffe pistol (how would one know) and what would its value be so that I may insure it properly. Thanks for all the help!! George

08-02-2002, 10:31 PM	#9
wterrell User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,096 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	[quote]Does anyone have idea where I may find foums of similar quality for Broomhandle Mausers, Mannlicher or Steyr-Hahn pistols? <hr></blockquote> LDegrelle, this forum is alive with interested members. Usually there is no two or three day wait for a reply to a query. I have not seen another forum such as this, but I have very few interests. <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" /> __________________ Noli me vocare, ego te vocabo, wes --------------------

08-04-2002, 06:18 PM	#12
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,761 Thanks: 4,857 Thanked 3,101 Times in 1,427 Posts	George, I noticed in the photo you have a small leather belt thru the belt loops of your holster. This is not a great idea. You may want to rethink handling the holster with this , particularly if the pistol is in it. These belt loops on holsters as old as this one are quite fragile. If not the leather then the threads. Another thing, do not store the pistol in the holster. Leather holsters take in and release moisture. This is not healthy for your fine pistol. So far it seems to have been taken care of and I am sure you want to continue to be an excellent caretaker of this fine piece of history. Recently a forum member presented a similar pistol to the forum and was offered $2500.00 by Mr. Brad Simpson. He is a dealer from Galesburg Il. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

08-01-2002, 02:53 PM	#2
George_F User Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 30 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Ooooof, thats what I get for not reading previous posts. Please disregard my question about the "8,82" marking as it was more thna adequately covered in one of the recent posts. I also forgot to add what the proof markings were. It is a DWM manufacture and has the appropriate markings as listed on the "Proof Marks" page 2, number 15 under the Technical Information part of your site. Sorry for the previous incomplete post. George

08-01-2002, 03:59 PM	#3
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	Sir, welcome to the forum, the value of the pistol is in the $1200+ range, especially with the matching magazines and the holster. And that is conservative. Its a beautiful gun. Now here is the fun part. The holster could, and this isn't definite, have origonated with Bavarian Regiment/Reserve 16, 11 ?, 3rd Squadron, second company. This was also known as 16th Bavarian Reserve Infantrie Regiment List, named after the commander as was the custom in German units through WWII. It was more likely in the 16th Bavarian Reserve than WWI Luftwaffe. And since that is the unit from which Der Furher began his rise to tryanny its likely more collectable than the pistol and possibly be substantial in value. [img]biggrin.gif[/img] RK http://www.photosammler.de/Serien/list01e.htm

08-01-2002, 06:12 PM	#4
Heydrich Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Oregon Posts: 181 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	RK, that really piques the imagination, doesn’t it? Even the miniscule chance that the former owner may have shown this pistol to Hitler, or had it next to him on the table in a game of cards or such. Isn’t one possible interpretation, 16th Bavarian Reserve Regiment, 11th battalion? And I agree, the mere twinkling of a chance that it was in the same unit as Adolf should dramatically increase its value.

08-02-2002, 02:17 AM	#5
George_F User Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 30 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	How very curious - of course there is no way to verify that this partcular Luger belongs to this holster. Truly I got some answers that I did not expect. Thanks for all the insights -- this story will make a great conversation piece to my kids (1 in the oven). As an aside, I am very impressed by the quality of this forum and the knowledge herein. Does anyone have idea where I may find foums of similar quality for Broomhandle Mausers, Mannlicher or Steyr-Hahn pistols? Thanks! George

08-02-2002, 09:36 AM	#6
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	Sir, the odds of the pistol & holster remaining together are not as outlandish as might be expected.The overall situation is relevant. You have an excellent condition 1915 pistol with two matching magazines. This alone is not common. Then there is an excellent condition holster made for a specific unit in the right color and marked to a unit at that time. The German procurement system allowed units to obtain items from local authorized contractors for that specific unit. If it were a well used pistol in an excellent holster or excellent pistol in a worn holster it would be different. But the condition of both are parallel and the two matching magazines only adds to the postitive aspect. Where do you keep an extra magazine? In the holster. Pistol gets lost or reissued or holster destroyed the extra magazine is separated and now there is only the one in the pistol. Then the fact of your father obtaining it. It could be a US military authority bring back which he obtained. Definite? nope. Possible? yes. Check holster carefully. Some were serial numbered to the gun. RK

08-02-2002, 01:31 PM	#7
Jan C Still User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Box 240188, Douglas, Alaska, 99824 Posts: 463 Thanks: 0 Thanked 52 Times in 32 Posts	George B.R.16 / 11 signifies Bavarian 16 Infanterie Regiment, perhaps the 11 signifies 11 Kompagnie. The E. which signifies a cavalry eskadron is not compatable with the first infanterie markings. In your holster photograph the B. looks more like a D. If this is the case the letters are compatable: D.R.16 / 11 / 3.E. / II signifies Dragoon Regiment 16. , 1911, 3rd Eskadron. This is a common format for cavalry marked holsters. Neither marking indicates Luftschiffer or Flieger which would contain an L. or F. Perhaps your father had capture imformation that indicated Luftwaffe issue. Such rigs in excellent condition with two origonal matching mags are very rare and worth a considerable premium. Jan

08-02-2002, 10:07 PM	#8
max2cam User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: USA Posts: 97 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Road Kill's original observation was momentarily quite exciting, because wouldn't the future Fuehrer as a messenger or runner have been issued a handgun during his various exploits in the trenches??? Alas, Jan Still's subsequent observation is probably more accurate. So much for romance...

08-02-2002, 10:47 PM	#10
Freischütz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Eastern Washington Posts: 125 Thanks: 9 Thanked 26 Times in 19 Posts	The posters are interested in most German/Austrian pistols. Off topic questions are welcome

08-04-2002, 06:05 PM	#11
George_F User Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 30 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks for all the great insights. I like to pride myself as being pretty knowledgable about the firearms of WWI & WW2 -- but you guys are downright amazing. I'll take another look at the holster when I get the chance and see about taking a better pic when I get my good digicam back. Thnaks for all the replies. George

08-07-2002, 02:15 AM	#13
LP08 User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 71 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	The pistol appears to be a standard issue WW1 1915 P08. Look on the front grip strap for any unit marking but if there is none there is no evidence that this was issued to the Luftwaffe. Perhaps some documents exist at your father's home or the museum that would confirm this. The holster looks almost identical to one I have that is marked to a Dragoon Regiment -- same manner, font and size marks between the belt loops. Mine, like yours is dated 1911 as indicated by the 11 on the back AND it is made of old Reichsrevolver holster parts. Yours looks like it might also be made of RR parts from the look of the front of the holster body (but the photo is not quite clear enough). I may have a holster that accompanied yours. Your holster is in nice shape and is rare. Don't store the gun in it or stress the holster. Keep it just as it is. Dave

08-11-2002, 10:19 AM	#14
George_F User Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 30 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Ah well, upon further examination it appears that the markings are indeed "D.R." instead of B.R. - a crease in the leather fooled me. Oh well -- at least I was able to find out more about the pedigree of this firearm. Thnaks for all the info. I took some photos of some other items in the collection and will posty those later to see if any of you can shed some light on them for me. Thanks again! George