1906 AE question <img BORDER="0" src='http://boards.rennlist.com/luger/pic.gif'>

Doug · 10-20-2001, 12:19 AM

I need help with a trade I am considering. I am trying to get a 1906 American Eagle. Blue is a solid 96-98% on the top with wear to the high spots only. Grip straps are a solid 99.9% this gun was not handled much. It does not show any signs of refinishing. Bore is like new, straw is 90% on the right and 30% on the left, which might mean over cleaning or over-exposure to sunlight. No rust pitting anywhere. Now for the bad news and there almost always is. The left grip panel does not match although the right does and they are the same color and tone and condition. It looks like it was dropped onto a hard flat surface, as there is a dent on the rear of the frame just above the lanyard loop. Correct type mag Ã¢??Cal 9m/mÃ¢?Â is present but looks odd. Anyway the asking price is around $2100.00. How much should I deduct for the damage? I am thinking $500 plus? Be hyper critical as it is not mine yet?

Thanks

Doug

http://members.home.net/deg16/ae.JPG

BILL · 10-20-2001, 12:33 AM

Well, the magazine is obviously been 'scratched' in by hand. It is obviously not original. It might be the photo but the barrel is awfully shiny looking (kinda like a new 9mm barrel that has been dip blued). The trigger on the right side does not have the same amount of strawing as the rest of the strawed parts so..I would say that it has had some work done to it. There weren't many 9mm American Eagles produced so they are kind of tough to find in really good condition. I would be very wary of this pistol.

Johnny Peppers · 10-20-2001, 10:50 AM

Doug,

I would have to agree with everything said by Bill. I believe your money would be better spent on another pistol of better quality. That pistol just doesn't come anywhere near the asking price.

Dok · 10-20-2001, 11:23 AM

as our resident expert on bluing... but that barrel looks just like my recent reworked dip blue job, and of course it should be rust blued, which is a softer blue/grey.

Dok

Thor · 10-20-2001, 11:47 AM

You have to remember that bluing looks way different in different lighting, nice grey/blue rust blue CAN look blue or black depending on light source and camera settings used. The thing that strikes me initially about this photo is the seemingly intense polish of the metal, I have a 1906 AE (from one of the forum regulars) that really is in need of a reblue and it has had a barrel change, the barrel is horribly salt blued and the gun has blood spills on it and oxidation and a multitude of problems, but the metal is in good shape and the original bluing is in place. It is NOT polished that highly in it's original state! Someone has worked on this gun! I think it is not completely original so not worth the money IMO. Does the seller have a return policy? that is always a good indication of smelly deal too, if you cant send the gun back, he doesnt want it back. VERY hard to make serious judgements on one photo, you really need to have it in your hand and be somewhat knowledgeable. Just MO! ~Thor~

10-20-2001, 04:17 PM

The finish reminds me of a Navy P04 made around 1907 I saw that had a very shiny black barrel but rust blue on all other parts that were not as highly polished. I have often wondered if that was due to barrel heating from firing or that the barrels were finished separate from the rest of the parts. The magazine, though, looks like an amateur attempt to make a replica of the original. Overall, the pistol is weak for a collectible and I would not be excited about it. With a replaced grip, I would not be interested as there are enough of these around to run into a better piece for the money.

Value? $700 and you should expect to live with it forever because it would be tough to sell

BILL · 10-20-2001, 05:01 PM

Here is what I am thinking..a .30cal 1906 AE with a replaced 9mm barrel (newly made) and a hand carved Cal 9mm on a magazine (ruining it's value) to make the barrel replacement seem more 'authentic'. Ok, that's the worst case scenario. Maybe just a rebarreled 9mm AE with a botched kitchen table job on the magazine bottom. At any rate, deliberate or not, the pistol is probably in need of a good home and would make a nice shooter (the ammo for 9mm is easier to come by than the .30Luger. If one could get a good enough deal on it, it would be a good start for a 'restoration' project. Depending on the serial number, you could track down a .30 cal 4-3/4" barrel, have it all rust blued (by Ted, of course), maybe have Hugh refinish the grips, and pick up several mag bottoms from GT and a nice case from Dok. One would then have one of very few complete 'Lugerforum' Lugers. The key is to get the existing piece for what it is really worth and that is about 1/3 what is being asked for it.

Dok · 10-20-2001, 09:21 PM

for less than $2100, if he started with a shooter for $700!!!!

Doug · 10-20-2001, 10:20 PM

Thanks to everyone for their observations. I think that I need to clarify a few things. First off the color difference between the barrel and the receiver is in the photo only. It was taken at night with a fluorescent light. As for the blue I do not doubt that it original as it is the same color as my 1908 commercial it also has the same polish. Besides this all the markings are very crisp under a 10x loop. The serial number puts it in the correct block for a 9mm and the extractor is marked Ã¢??loadedÃ¢?Â and also matches the last two digits. If this gun has been restored it was done by a professional. Anyway What I am really asking is how much to deduct for the miss-matched grip panel. KenyonÃ¢??s book lists the grips as either being numbered to the gun or blank. The mag doesnÃ¢??t bother me so much as it was also produced with a blank bottom.

Thanks

Doug

Doug · 10-20-2001, 10:37 PM

look down

pics

BILL · 10-21-2001, 12:18 AM

Doug, the latest batch of pictures look a lot better than the first ones. I think it is really hard to judge a Luger by it's pictures (as is evidenced in the comments that were posted). As always, you are the final judge when it comes to paying for something. I don't think that you can discount this pistol too much for non-matching grips since either marked or unmarked are correct. If one were to replace the grips with a matching unmarked pair you would have an otherwise all matching pistol (you would never know that they weren't the actual grips that came on the pistol). I would probably be looking more at the back of the frame above the lanyard right behind the safety. That area has seen a few hard knocks (unless that also is the photo). Upon looking at the grip strap I believe that the bluing is original as I can see the reddish oxidation under the blue even in the photo. Good Luck.

10-21-2001, 02:46 AM

Doug,

I hate to bring bad news but I think that I would Question!

1) In pic#7 I think I detect some pitting of the cannon yoke,

above and to the left of the DWM Logo and between the Logo and the upper knurled knob (upper in the photo)

2) This pitting appears to be blue in the bottoms of these spots on the pic.

check closely with that 10x loupe. If so then it has been re-blued!

3) There also in pic#5 appears to be blue in the bottoms of the "2 dings"(a small one above the larger on the rear of the frame above the lanyard loop. . If so then it has been re-blued!

4) In pic#3 it seems that the barrel serial number has a suffix letter Ã¢??sÃ¢?Â and seems to be different than the frame serial number.

If so? Again a re-work job.

5) Is the wood grain of the mag. bottom running in the correct direction and is the mag. made of plated metal or blued metal?

All of these questions require answers to so that our more knowledgeable collectors can answer your questions as to value !

ViggoG

David Jackson · 10-21-2001, 02:52 AM

Hi Gang;

I am not trying to be a smart aleck here. I happen to have a pretty nice 06 Eagle in 9MM. I will state most emphatically that the magazine is definitely stamped "Cal 9MM". I think there is one other clue as to originality of finish which I have not seen discussed on the forum although it may have been. These guns should, I believe, have a "halo" around the word "GERMANY" at the front of the frame. I believe it has to do with when the word was stamped into the gun. No halo means refinish.

A halo is a brownish or sort of haze or sort of almost oxidation around the letters of the word "Germany". Stoeger Lugers have it, other Eagles I have seen with original finish have it. I don't think it can be faked and when the guns were new it was probably not there.

If the gun you are looking at has a halo then the finish is more than likely original; if it has no halo then I don't think you can count on it being the original finish. That poor mag base has been ruined.

For What Its Worth ...

Johnny Peppers · 10-21-2001, 10:49 AM

David,

I also noticed what seems to be an absolute absence of any halo around GERMANY. The halo may show on the barrel serial number and not the frame or vice versa, but invariably it will be around the GERMANY. The halo is possibly due to the work hardening of the metal by the stamping. The halo is much more evident when viewed under strong light, such as the MiniMag flashlight.

David Jackson · 10-22-2001, 12:54 AM

Hi Johnny;

You have mentioned that to me before; I have not tried it yet. Will it work with one of those mini maglites?

Johnny Peppers · 10-22-2001, 10:01 AM

David,

The MiniMag flashlight uses a high intensity bulb to get that much light out of two AA batteries. It will literally shine through the blueing of a gun, and expose the oxidation under the blue. The halo on serial numbers or stamps will literally look like rust spots on the gun. This is also a good test for a recent blue job. A 50 to 100 year old Luger will have some tiny rust spots or oxidation under the finish which is not visible under normal light, but the intense light will make it stand out. Any pistol that does not show this oxidation had better be looked at very carefully. The refinishers are doing an excellent job of refinishing the pistols without buffing anything away, but they can't put the oxidation under the finish.

10-20-2001, 12:19 AM	#1
Doug User Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: USA Posts: 168 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	1906 AE question I need help with a trade I am considering. I am trying to get a 1906 American Eagle. Blue is a solid 96-98% on the top with wear to the high spots only. Grip straps are a solid 99.9% this gun was not handled much. It does not show any signs of refinishing. Bore is like new, straw is 90% on the right and 30% on the left, which might mean over cleaning or over-exposure to sunlight. No rust pitting anywhere. Now for the bad news and there almost always is. The left grip panel does not match although the right does and they are the same color and tone and condition. It looks like it was dropped onto a hard flat surface, as there is a dent on the rear of the frame just above the lanyard loop. Correct type mag Ã¢??Cal 9m/mÃ¢?Â is present but looks odd. Anyway the asking price is around $2100.00. How much should I deduct for the damage? I am thinking $500 plus? Be hyper critical as it is not mine yet? Thanks Doug http://members.home.net/deg16/ae.JPG

10-20-2001, 12:33 AM	#2
BILL User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Western Washington Posts: 826 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: 1906 AE question Well, the magazine is obviously been 'scratched' in by hand. It is obviously not original. It might be the photo but the barrel is awfully shiny looking (kinda like a new 9mm barrel that has been dip blued). The trigger on the right side does not have the same amount of strawing as the rest of the strawed parts so..I would say that it has had some work done to it. There weren't many 9mm American Eagles produced so they are kind of tough to find in really good condition. I would be very wary of this pistol.

10-20-2001, 11:23 AM	#4
Dok RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Bermuda (Eat Your Heart Out) Posts: 1,626 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	I would be interested in Thor's opinion... as our resident expert on bluing... but that barrel looks just like my recent reworked dip blue job, and of course it should be rust blued, which is a softer blue/grey. Dok

10-20-2001, 04:17 PM	#6
mlm Guest Posts: n/a	Re: 1906 AE question The finish reminds me of a Navy P04 made around 1907 I saw that had a very shiny black barrel but rust blue on all other parts that were not as highly polished. I have often wondered if that was due to barrel heating from firing or that the barrels were finished separate from the rest of the parts. The magazine, though, looks like an amateur attempt to make a replica of the original. Overall, the pistol is weak for a collectible and I would not be excited about it. With a replaced grip, I would not be interested as there are enough of these around to run into a better piece for the money. Value? $700 and you should expect to live with it forever because it would be tough to sell

10-20-2001, 09:21 PM	#8
Dok RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Bermuda (Eat Your Heart Out) Posts: 1,626 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	And he could get all that... for less than $2100, if he started with a shooter for $700!!!!

10-20-2001, 10:50 AM	#3
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: 1906 AE question Doug, I would have to agree with everything said by Bill. I believe your money would be better spent on another pistol of better quality. That pistol just doesn't come anywhere near the asking price.

10-20-2001, 11:47 AM	#5
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Re: 1906 AE question You have to remember that bluing looks way different in different lighting, nice grey/blue rust blue CAN look blue or black depending on light source and camera settings used. The thing that strikes me initially about this photo is the seemingly intense polish of the metal, I have a 1906 AE (from one of the forum regulars) that really is in need of a reblue and it has had a barrel change, the barrel is horribly salt blued and the gun has blood spills on it and oxidation and a multitude of problems, but the metal is in good shape and the original bluing is in place. It is NOT polished that highly in it's original state! Someone has worked on this gun! I think it is not completely original so not worth the money IMO. Does the seller have a return policy? that is always a good indication of smelly deal too, if you cant send the gun back, he doesnt want it back. VERY hard to make serious judgements on one photo, you really need to have it in your hand and be somewhat knowledgeable. Just MO! ~Thor~

10-20-2001, 05:01 PM	#7
BILL User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Western Washington Posts: 826 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: 1906 AE question Here is what I am thinking..a .30cal 1906 AE with a replaced 9mm barrel (newly made) and a hand carved Cal 9mm on a magazine (ruining it's value) to make the barrel replacement seem more 'authentic'. Ok, that's the worst case scenario. Maybe just a rebarreled 9mm AE with a botched kitchen table job on the magazine bottom. At any rate, deliberate or not, the pistol is probably in need of a good home and would make a nice shooter (the ammo for 9mm is easier to come by than the .30Luger. If one could get a good enough deal on it, it would be a good start for a 'restoration' project. Depending on the serial number, you could track down a .30 cal 4-3/4" barrel, have it all rust blued (by Ted, of course), maybe have Hugh refinish the grips, and pick up several mag bottoms from GT and a nice case from Dok. One would then have one of very few complete 'Lugerforum' Lugers. The key is to get the existing piece for what it is really worth and that is about 1/3 what is being asked for it.

10-20-2001, 10:20 PM	#9
Doug User Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: USA Posts: 168 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Clarification of AE Thanks to everyone for their observations. I think that I need to clarify a few things. First off the color difference between the barrel and the receiver is in the photo only. It was taken at night with a fluorescent light. As for the blue I do not doubt that it original as it is the same color as my 1908 commercial it also has the same polish. Besides this all the markings are very crisp under a 10x loop. The serial number puts it in the correct block for a 9mm and the extractor is marked Ã¢??loadedÃ¢?Â and also matches the last two digits. If this gun has been restored it was done by a professional. Anyway What I am really asking is how much to deduct for the miss-matched grip panel. KenyonÃ¢??s book lists the grips as either being numbered to the gun or blank. The mag doesnÃ¢??t bother me so much as it was also produced with a blank bottom. Thanks Doug

10-20-2001, 10:37 PM	#10
Doug User Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: USA Posts: 168 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	More pictures look down pics

10-21-2001, 12:18 AM	#11
BILL User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Western Washington Posts: 826 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Better pictures Doug, the latest batch of pictures look a lot better than the first ones. I think it is really hard to judge a Luger by it's pictures (as is evidenced in the comments that were posted). As always, you are the final judge when it comes to paying for something. I don't think that you can discount this pistol too much for non-matching grips since either marked or unmarked are correct. If one were to replace the grips with a matching unmarked pair you would have an otherwise all matching pistol (you would never know that they weren't the actual grips that came on the pistol). I would probably be looking more at the back of the frame above the lanyard right behind the safety. That area has seen a few hard knocks (unless that also is the photo). Upon looking at the grip strap I believe that the bluing is original as I can see the reddish oxidation under the blue even in the photo. Good Luck.

10-21-2001, 02:46 AM	#12
Viggo G Dereng Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Better pictures, Bring Questions! Doug, I hate to bring bad news but I think that I would Question! 1) In pic#7 I think I detect some pitting of the cannon yoke, above and to the left of the DWM Logo and between the Logo and the upper knurled knob (upper in the photo) 2) This pitting appears to be blue in the bottoms of these spots on the pic. check closely with that 10x loupe. If so then it has been re-blued! 3) There also in pic#5 appears to be blue in the bottoms of the "2 dings"(a small one above the larger on the rear of the frame above the lanyard loop. . If so then it has been re-blued! 4) In pic#3 it seems that the barrel serial number has a suffix letter Ã¢??sÃ¢?Â and seems to be different than the frame serial number. If so? Again a re-work job. 5) Is the wood grain of the mag. bottom running in the correct direction and is the mag. made of plated metal or blued metal? All of these questions require answers to so that our more knowledgeable collectors can answer your questions as to value ! ViggoG

10-21-2001, 02:52 AM	#13
David Jackson User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Magalia, California Posts: 135 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Better pictures Hi Gang; I am not trying to be a smart aleck here. I happen to have a pretty nice 06 Eagle in 9MM. I will state most emphatically that the magazine is definitely stamped "Cal 9MM". I think there is one other clue as to originality of finish which I have not seen discussed on the forum although it may have been. These guns should, I believe, have a "halo" around the word "GERMANY" at the front of the frame. I believe it has to do with when the word was stamped into the gun. No halo means refinish. A halo is a brownish or sort of haze or sort of almost oxidation around the letters of the word "Germany". Stoeger Lugers have it, other Eagles I have seen with original finish have it. I don't think it can be faked and when the guns were new it was probably not there. If the gun you are looking at has a halo then the finish is more than likely original; if it has no halo then I don't think you can count on it being the original finish. That poor mag base has been ruined. For What Its Worth ...

10-21-2001, 10:49 AM	#14
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: Better pictures David, I also noticed what seems to be an absolute absence of any halo around GERMANY. The halo may show on the barrel serial number and not the frame or vice versa, but invariably it will be around the GERMANY. The halo is possibly due to the work hardening of the metal by the stamping. The halo is much more evident when viewed under strong light, such as the MiniMag flashlight.

10-22-2001, 12:54 AM	#15
David Jackson User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Magalia, California Posts: 135 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Better pictures Hi Johnny; You have mentioned that to me before; I have not tried it yet. Will it work with one of those mini maglites?

10-22-2001, 10:01 AM	#16
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: Better pictures David, The MiniMag flashlight uses a high intensity bulb to get that much light out of two AA batteries. It will literally shine through the blueing of a gun, and expose the oxidation under the blue. The halo on serial numbers or stamps will literally look like rust spots on the gun. This is also a good test for a recent blue job. A 50 to 100 year old Luger will have some tiny rust spots or oxidation under the finish which is not visible under normal light, but the intense light will make it stand out. Any pistol that does not show this oxidation had better be looked at very carefully. The refinishers are doing an excellent job of refinishing the pistols without buffing anything away, but they can't put the oxidation under the finish.