Shoulder Stock Law ???

10-21-2001, 04:09 AM

Can ANYONE E-mail me a copy of the law that makes Pistols With Shoulder Stocks Un-Lawfull?

There are so many things being produced that the line seems to be blurring.

And I for one would like to be informed without listening to a lot of "we interpets".

I want to read it myself!!!!!

ViggoG

Kyrie · 10-21-2001, 07:32 AM

Hi ViggoG,

The law that defines pistols with an attached shoulder stock as Ã¢??short barreled riflesÃ¢?Â, and subject to the $200 tax and registration, is the National Firearms Act. I can send you a copy, or you should be able to find a copy at ATFÃ¢??s site:

http://www.atf.treas.gov/

Over the years ATF has ruled that a few pistols are Ã¢??Curio & RelicsÃ¢?Â, that these pistols are unlikely to be used in a crime, and are exempt from the NFA short barreled rifle restriction if equipped with an original shoulder stock. These pistols include some Luger variations - specifically the Artillery and Navy variations and some other specific variations. This list of pistols can be found in the ATF list of C&R firearms (also available at the ATF URL, or I can send you a copy).

Additionally, ATF has ruled a few of these pistols are legal with reproduction shoulder stocks if those shoulder stocks Ã¢??either duplicate or closely approximate the dimensions and configuration of the original stocksÃ¢?Â. This was done by administrative ruling rather than statute, and has been confirmed by ATF letter - I can supply a copy of the ATF letter that deals specifically with Lugers.

I hope this helps, and please let me know if youÃ¢??d like me to supply the documents rather than digging them up yourself at the ATF site.

Best regards,

Kyrie

Steve Lempitski · 10-21-2001, 11:12 AM

How common was the use of a stock? I mean, basically 99% of the military issue lugers are fitted with a stock lug, but it seems to me that stocks are a rather rare commodity. It seems "uncharacteristically German" to put the time and energy into the stock lug on the pistol when probably less than 1% of the lugers made actually ever had a stock attached. I can understand Navies and Artilleries, which regularly had stocks issued, but on 'regular' 4 inch barreled guns, why bother?

Dok · 10-21-2001, 11:33 AM

In the General Information section you will find a BATF letter in this very subject.

Dok

Kyrie · 10-21-2001, 01:11 PM

Hi Steve,

The Germans made the four inch military Lugers with stock lugs because it was cheaper to make all the frames the same than to make some with stock lugs and same without. The short barreled Lugers were typically not issued with stocks, and were never used with stocks.

Best regards,

Kyrie

Marvin · 10-21-2001, 01:36 PM

Kyrie,

I have heard, and cannot remember where, that the stock lug was left on after WWI because it was used as a locating point in the tooling. Have you or anyone else ever heard this theory for maintaining the stock lug; especially after Mauser took over manufacture and it was not used?

Marvin

Johnny Peppers · 10-21-2001, 02:12 PM

Marvin,

Same here. I cannot remember the source, but I had read that the stock lug on the frame was used to help hold the frame during part of the milling operations. The German military only issued the shoulder stock with the Navy and Artillery models, and even these stocks are slightly different in dimensions.

Kyrie · 10-21-2001, 02:17 PM

Hi Marvin,

IÃ¢??ve heard the same thing, but cannot vouch for the accuracy of the comment.

Back on the subject of Lugers issued with stocks, the only short barrel Luger I can think of off hand that was issued with a shoulder stock was the Finn 1923. Can anyone think of another short barreled Luger that was issued with a stock?

Best regards,

Kyrie

10-21-2001, 09:17 PM

Sorry Dok,

This is what I call a "WE INTERPET" .

I was looking for the "Verbatim Law".

Which Kyre has pointed me toward.

Thanks all the same,

ViggoG

10-21-2001, 09:24 PM

Thanks Kyrie,

Sorry for the typo in my answer to Dok,

And thanks much for the link and offer,

I'll take a look and if still need help I'll e-mail back,

Thanks again,

ViggoG

John Sabato · 10-22-2001, 08:14 AM

without benefit of input from others. Having worked a couple of years in metal manufacturing engineering, and many years as gunsmith, I introduced this theory in a long ago Luger Forum discussion that I believe was started by Ted Green (most likely before we moved the forum's presence out of Taiwan).

I have never seen any photos of an original Luger manufacturing production line, but often wondered about what the process looked like. The stock lug is one of the few areas that seems logical, or even practical, for holding a "raw" frame in a milling jig... I think it would be one of the first features to be produced by the milling process, because it would simplify all the manufacturing operation to follow it...

regards,

John Sabato

John D. · 10-22-2001, 08:29 AM

I made reference to the Stock Lug being used as part of the manufacturing process (to hold the frame during manufacturing) on the old Board when this thread arose.

My comment was specific to Krieg production. The source was Gibson (of course!:-) in the first or second Chapter, specifically where there are references to some of the differences between the stock lugs on Krieghoff, Mauser, Simson, etc.. I'll try to find a page reference later today..!!!

10-21-2001, 04:09 AM	#1
Viggo G Dereng Guest Posts: n/a	Shoulder Stock Law ??? Can ANYONE E-mail me a copy of the law that makes Pistols With Shoulder Stocks Un-Lawfull? There are so many things being produced that the line seems to be blurring. And I for one would like to be informed without listening to a lot of "we interpets". I want to read it myself!!!!! ViggoG

10-21-2001, 07:32 AM	#2
Kyrie User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 757 Thanks: 0 Thanked 212 Times in 101 Posts	Re: Shoulder Stock Law ??? Hi ViggoG, The law that defines pistols with an attached shoulder stock as Ã¢??short barreled riflesÃ¢?Â, and subject to the $200 tax and registration, is the National Firearms Act. I can send you a copy, or you should be able to find a copy at ATFÃ¢??s site: http://www.atf.treas.gov/ Over the years ATF has ruled that a few pistols are Ã¢??Curio & RelicsÃ¢?Â, that these pistols are unlikely to be used in a crime, and are exempt from the NFA short barreled rifle restriction if equipped with an original shoulder stock. These pistols include some Luger variations - specifically the Artillery and Navy variations and some other specific variations. This list of pistols can be found in the ATF list of C&R firearms (also available at the ATF URL, or I can send you a copy). Additionally, ATF has ruled a few of these pistols are legal with reproduction shoulder stocks if those shoulder stocks Ã¢??either duplicate or closely approximate the dimensions and configuration of the original stocksÃ¢?Â. This was done by administrative ruling rather than statute, and has been confirmed by ATF letter - I can supply a copy of the ATF letter that deals specifically with Lugers. I hope this helps, and please let me know if youÃ¢??d like me to supply the documents rather than digging them up yourself at the ATF site. Best regards, Kyrie

10-21-2001, 11:12 AM	#3
Steve Lempitski User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Old Cape Cod Posts: 238 Thanks: 1 Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts	Question on the amount of stock use How common was the use of a stock? I mean, basically 99% of the military issue lugers are fitted with a stock lug, but it seems to me that stocks are a rather rare commodity. It seems "uncharacteristically German" to put the time and energy into the stock lug on the pistol when probably less than 1% of the lugers made actually ever had a stock attached. I can understand Navies and Artilleries, which regularly had stocks issued, but on 'regular' 4 inch barreled guns, why bother?

10-21-2001, 11:33 AM	#4
Dok RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Bermuda (Eat Your Heart Out) Posts: 1,626 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Viggo, you need to prowl your forum more... In the General Information section you will find a BATF letter in this very subject. Dok

10-21-2001, 01:11 PM	#5
Kyrie User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 757 Thanks: 0 Thanked 212 Times in 101 Posts	Re: Question on the amount of stock use Hi Steve, The Germans made the four inch military Lugers with stock lugs because it was cheaper to make all the frames the same than to make some with stock lugs and same without. The short barreled Lugers were typically not issued with stocks, and were never used with stocks. Best regards, Kyrie

10-21-2001, 01:36 PM	#6
Marvin User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Upstate S.C. Posts: 1,132 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Question on the amount of stock use Kyrie, I have heard, and cannot remember where, that the stock lug was left on after WWI because it was used as a locating point in the tooling. Have you or anyone else ever heard this theory for maintaining the stock lug; especially after Mauser took over manufacture and it was not used? Marvin

10-21-2001, 02:12 PM	#7
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: Question on the amount of stock use Marvin, Same here. I cannot remember the source, but I had read that the stock lug on the frame was used to help hold the frame during part of the milling operations. The German military only issued the shoulder stock with the Navy and Artillery models, and even these stocks are slightly different in dimensions.

10-21-2001, 02:17 PM	#8
Kyrie User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 757 Thanks: 0 Thanked 212 Times in 101 Posts	Re: Question on the amount of stock use Hi Marvin, IÃ¢??ve heard the same thing, but cannot vouch for the accuracy of the comment. Back on the subject of Lugers issued with stocks, the only short barrel Luger I can think of off hand that was issued with a shoulder stock was the Finn 1923. Can anyone think of another short barreled Luger that was issued with a stock? Best regards, Kyrie

10-21-2001, 09:17 PM	#9
Viggo G Dereng Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Viggo, you need to prowl your forum more... Sorry Dok, This is what I call a "WE INTERPET" . I was looking for the "Verbatim Law". Which Kyre has pointed me toward. Thanks all the same, ViggoG

10-21-2001, 09:24 PM	#10
Viggo G Dereng Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Shoulder Stock Law ??? Thanks Kyrie, Sorry for the typo in my answer to Dok, And thanks much for the link and offer, I'll take a look and if still need help I'll e-mail back, Thanks again, ViggoG

10-22-2001, 08:14 AM	#11
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Gentlemen, I believe that I was the source of this theory without benefit of input from others. Having worked a couple of years in metal manufacturing engineering, and many years as gunsmith, I introduced this theory in a long ago Luger Forum discussion that I believe was started by Ted Green (most likely before we moved the forum's presence out of Taiwan). I have never seen any photos of an original Luger manufacturing production line, but often wondered about what the process looked like. The stock lug is one of the few areas that seems logical, or even practical, for holding a "raw" frame in a milling jig... I think it would be one of the first features to be produced by the milling process, because it would simplify all the manufacturing operation to follow it... regards, John Sabato

10-22-2001, 08:29 AM	#12
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 471 Thanked 513 Times in 127 Posts	Re: Question on the amount of stock use I made reference to the Stock Lug being used as part of the manufacturing process (to hold the frame during manufacturing) on the old Board when this thread arose. My comment was specific to Krieg production. The source was Gibson (of course!:-) in the first or second Chapter, specifically where there are references to some of the differences between the stock lugs on Krieghoff, Mauser, Simson, etc.. I'll try to find a page reference later today..!!!