Need help on a Erfurt 1918

luscioman · 02-11-2005, 06:06 PM

This is my first Luger and I need some help on it. Sorry I dont have all my pics to post on this with me. The rest are in the office so I can add them later. I just picked this up last week from someone that said it didnt work. I took it apart and the the firing pin was not seated. No problem. However I have been searching the site to figure out the markings on this and havent figured much out. I know that it was a 1918 by the date on the top. However the slide has some markings that I have not been able to match. The entire top half has matching numbers and the frame is different.

Dwight Gruber · 02-11-2005, 10:43 PM

Steve,

This is going to prove to be a -very- interesting Luger. The leftmost stamp is a WWI Imperial inspector's stamp. It was the first of a Luger's final inspection marks, certifying that the receiver has been hardened. This mark and the date at the top of the receiver are stamped at the same time. The small RC stamped above it indicates that the receiver did not meet specifications in some manner, and went before the Revisions-Commission examining board to be certified useable.

The two small crowns to the right are in position, ready for the appropriate inspectors' stamps for other inspections which never occurred. The figure below them appears to be some kind of 1930s rework stamp, but it is too blurry and dark to make out.

The third figure is a 1930s era power-proof eagle, but it is also too dark and blurry to determine its specific characteristics.

It will be good to see a complete catalog of markings on this gun, sharp and well-exposed. Of particular interest will be marks on the barrel (bottom and elsewhere), and the top of the pistol.

--Dwight

Vlim · 02-12-2005, 12:50 PM

Hi,

This is indeed interesting. It appears that while it has been very heavily buffed, the markings are still relatively clear. Which is a bit worrying.

The mid-eagly looks a bit like a 1939-1945 'Materialprufing' or 'Material proof' (eagle-M). These were used for proofing gun parts, rather than complete guns. There is a possibility that the barrel/receiver combo has been proofed seperately in the 1939-1945 timeframe.

The other eagle is most probably a post-war Western-German firing proof.

Karl · 02-12-2005, 09:31 PM

If it's a 1918 Erfurt why isn't the top of the receiver cut for the arty sight? Also, judging from color, the barrel appears to be a replacement. Better photos of would be interesting. KFS

luscioman · 02-14-2005, 12:39 PM

Here are a few more pics. I hope they are a bit better. The sights do not appear to be the Art sights either.

luscioman · 02-14-2005, 12:39 PM

Top view

John Sabato · 02-14-2005, 12:58 PM

...considering the apparent new barrel installation, and the odd marks, I believe that this was a East German Volspolizie (VOPO) rework, that already had quite a history when the rebuild took place... Just my $0.02

Welcome to the Lugerforum Steve... Please show us some photos of the two sides of the pistol ... and if possible the front of the grip frame in front of the trigger guard...

Vlim · 02-14-2005, 01:30 PM

Hi,

If it's a VoPo, reproofed in Western Germany, there would be similar 'republic eagles', like the one on the right on the barrel, possibly on the front of the frame under the takedown lever and on the toggle.

Also, a German proof mark on the frame under the takedown lever, together with a year-code (2 digits or 2 letters).

It may just as well be a recent barrel replacement job on an old VoPo, etc...

Dwight Gruber · 02-14-2005, 10:29 PM

Costanzo, ever ambiguous, lists two eagle/SU4 figures. To be precise, on page 104, a slightly up-curved eagle with down-pointing feathers over Su4, "1933 Simson rework of a defective part. U represents Ulbricht rework, repair, and reissue. Passed by Inspector #4. Locations noted: right receiver."

On page 129, he shows a stick-style eagle, much closer to the one on this Luger, over SU4: "1940 Simson/Ulbricht proof. Noted on aluminum magazine bottoms. SU-4 denotes Simson/Ulbricht. The number 4 is a contract number."

Note the case of the U, the "1933" mark is Su4; the "1940" mark is SU4.

The right-hand Eagle looks to me more like the Mauser 1936-39 proof Eagle.

The question arises in the context of this gun, what exactly is Simson/Ulbricht? Costanzo shows some (curved) eagle/SU40 marks, and attributes some of them to parts contracts Mauser let with Simson in 1940(!!!).

Walter (The Luger Book) asserts that there is no satisfactory explanation of who or what "Ulbricht"was. He notes that Su ofter appears on tools, sometimes in the form of WwSu. Quoting from p. 251: "This may indicate Wehrmachtswaffenamt (Ww) and perhaps 'Submissionsamt': a gun-accepting office responsible for considering old or rejected guns in the same way that the Revisions-Commission had operated."

There are SU stamps with several different numbers; Walter would have us understand that it is the Su which has the consistent meaning, regardless of the associated number. Is this another example of Costanzo over-documenting the markings, ascribing substantive meanings to variations of the same mark?

Still illustrates both versions of e/Su4 marks in Weimar Lugers (p.2) along with other eagle and number variations on the Su theme. He calls them Ordnance Repair stamps, but the rest of the volume is mute in their regard.

We desperately need to see all the markings on this pistol, particularly any marks on the barrel (or the lack of them) and on the frame. It would be good to know if there is a witness mark on the bottom of the barrel, and also if there is a witness mark which crosses the front sight and the right-side top of the sight base.

What we've seen of this Luger so far is that it is refinished, the upper is a 1918 Erfurt (complete with proper LP-08 sight notch) and that Simson may have had a hand in its (pre-refinish) rework. The RC mark over the hardness inspection, and the absence of the rest of the Imperial proof complement, lends credence to the defective-part interpretation. If the Submissionsamt interpretation is the proper one, other markings may tell who completed or reworked this pistol.

--Dwight

luscioman · 02-17-2005, 03:02 PM

Here is the left side. The eagle that is blurred out is the same SU4 again.

Dwight Gruber · 02-18-2005, 02:13 AM

luscioman,

Still hoping to see more markings. You note that the frame and upper do not match, however the sideplate and takedown lever are number matches, and the takedown lever is Erfurt inspector stamped.

--Dwight

luscioman · 02-18-2005, 10:41 AM

Sorry about the confusion and delay in pics. All the serial numbers match on it except for the frame. The frame has a different number. There are no markings at all on the barrel.

luscioman · 02-23-2005, 02:02 PM

Anyone have any more thoughts on this?

Edward Tinker · 02-23-2005, 03:38 PM

anytime it is a "parts" gun, it makes it harder to answer smart, because there could always be what-ifs...

Ed

Vlim · 02-24-2005, 09:14 AM

Can you add a picture of the muzzle crown?

This makes it easier to determine whether the barrel is a later replacement.

02-11-2005, 06:06 PM	#1
luscioman User Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 113 Thanks: 1 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Need help on a Erfurt 1918 This is my first Luger and I need some help on it. Sorry I dont have all my pics to post on this with me. The rest are in the office so I can add them later. I just picked this up last week from someone that said it didnt work. I took it apart and the the firing pin was not seated. No problem. However I have been searching the site to figure out the markings on this and havent figured much out. I know that it was a 1918 by the date on the top. However the slide has some markings that I have not been able to match. The entire top half has matching numbers and the frame is different. Attached Thumbnails

02-14-2005, 12:39 PM	#5
luscioman User Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 113 Thanks: 1 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Here are a few more pics. I hope they are a bit better. The sights do not appear to be the Art sights either. Attached Thumbnails

02-14-2005, 12:39 PM	#6
luscioman User Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 113 Thanks: 1 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Top view Attached Thumbnails

02-14-2005, 12:58 PM	#7
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	...considering the apparent new barrel installation, and the odd marks, I believe that this was a East German Volspolizie (VOPO) rework, that already had quite a history when the rebuild took place... Just my $0.02 Welcome to the Lugerforum Steve... Please show us some photos of the two sides of the pistol ... and if possible the front of the grip frame in front of the trigger guard... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

02-14-2005, 10:29 PM	#9
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	Costanzo, ever ambiguous, lists two eagle/SU4 figures. To be precise, on page 104, a slightly up-curved eagle with down-pointing feathers over Su4, "1933 Simson rework of a defective part. U represents Ulbricht rework, repair, and reissue. Passed by Inspector #4. Locations noted: right receiver." On page 129, he shows a stick-style eagle, much closer to the one on this Luger, over SU4: "1940 Simson/Ulbricht proof. Noted on aluminum magazine bottoms. SU-4 denotes Simson/Ulbricht. The number 4 is a contract number." Note the case of the U, the "1933" mark is Su4; the "1940" mark is SU4. The right-hand Eagle looks to me more like the Mauser 1936-39 proof Eagle. The question arises in the context of this gun, what exactly is Simson/Ulbricht? Costanzo shows some (curved) eagle/SU40 marks, and attributes some of them to parts contracts Mauser let with Simson in 1940(!!!). Walter (The Luger Book) asserts that there is no satisfactory explanation of who or what "Ulbricht"was. He notes that Su ofter appears on tools, sometimes in the form of WwSu. Quoting from p. 251: "This may indicate Wehrmachtswaffenamt (Ww) and perhaps 'Submissionsamt': a gun-accepting office responsible for considering old or rejected guns in the same way that the Revisions-Commission had operated." There are SU stamps with several different numbers; Walter would have us understand that it is the Su which has the consistent meaning, regardless of the associated number. Is this another example of Costanzo over-documenting the markings, ascribing substantive meanings to variations of the same mark? Still illustrates both versions of e/Su4 marks in Weimar Lugers (p.2) along with other eagle and number variations on the Su theme. He calls them Ordnance Repair stamps, but the rest of the volume is mute in their regard. We desperately need to see all the markings on this pistol, particularly any marks on the barrel (or the lack of them) and on the frame. It would be good to know if there is a witness mark on the bottom of the barrel, and also if there is a witness mark which crosses the front sight and the right-side top of the sight base. What we've seen of this Luger so far is that it is refinished, the upper is a 1918 Erfurt (complete with proper LP-08 sight notch) and that Simson may have had a hand in its (pre-refinish) rework. The RC mark over the hardness inspection, and the absence of the rest of the Imperial proof complement, lends credence to the defective-part interpretation. If the Submissionsamt interpretation is the proper one, other markings may tell who completed or reworked this pistol. --Dwight Last edited by Dwight Gruber; 02-15-2005 at 02:10 AM.

02-11-2005, 10:43 PM	#2
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	Steve, This is going to prove to be a -very- interesting Luger. The leftmost stamp is a WWI Imperial inspector's stamp. It was the first of a Luger's final inspection marks, certifying that the receiver has been hardened. This mark and the date at the top of the receiver are stamped at the same time. The small RC stamped above it indicates that the receiver did not meet specifications in some manner, and went before the Revisions-Commission examining board to be certified useable. The two small crowns to the right are in position, ready for the appropriate inspectors' stamps for other inspections which never occurred. The figure below them appears to be some kind of 1930s rework stamp, but it is too blurry and dark to make out. The third figure is a 1930s era power-proof eagle, but it is also too dark and blurry to determine its specific characteristics. It will be good to see a complete catalog of markings on this gun, sharp and well-exposed. Of particular interest will be marks on the barrel (bottom and elsewhere), and the top of the pistol. --Dwight

02-12-2005, 12:50 PM	#3
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,043 Thanks: 1,032 Thanked 3,930 Times in 1,194 Posts	Hi, This is indeed interesting. It appears that while it has been very heavily buffed, the markings are still relatively clear. Which is a bit worrying. The mid-eagly looks a bit like a 1939-1945 'Materialprufing' or 'Material proof' (eagle-M). These were used for proofing gun parts, rather than complete guns. There is a possibility that the barrel/receiver combo has been proofed seperately in the 1939-1945 timeframe. The other eagle is most probably a post-war Western-German firing proof.

02-12-2005, 09:31 PM	#4
Karl Lifer - Twice Over Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Savannah Posts: 515 Thanks: 0 Thanked 252 Times in 112 Posts	If it's a 1918 Erfurt why isn't the top of the receiver cut for the arty sight? Also, judging from color, the barrel appears to be a replacement. Better photos of would be interesting. KFS

02-14-2005, 01:30 PM	#8
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,043 Thanks: 1,032 Thanked 3,930 Times in 1,194 Posts	Hi, If it's a VoPo, reproofed in Western Germany, there would be similar 'republic eagles', like the one on the right on the barrel, possibly on the front of the frame under the takedown lever and on the toggle. Also, a German proof mark on the frame under the takedown lever, together with a year-code (2 digits or 2 letters). It may just as well be a recent barrel replacement job on an old VoPo, etc...

02-17-2005, 03:02 PM	#10
luscioman User Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 113 Thanks: 1 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Here is the left side. The eagle that is blurred out is the same SU4 again. Attached Thumbnails

02-18-2005, 02:13 AM	#11
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	luscioman, Still hoping to see more markings. You note that the frame and upper do not match, however the sideplate and takedown lever are number matches, and the takedown lever is Erfurt inspector stamped. --Dwight

02-18-2005, 10:41 AM	#12
luscioman User Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 113 Thanks: 1 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Sorry about the confusion and delay in pics. All the serial numbers match on it except for the frame. The frame has a different number. There are no markings at all on the barrel. Attached Thumbnails

02-23-2005, 02:02 PM	#13
luscioman User Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 113 Thanks: 1 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Anyone have any more thoughts on this?

02-23-2005, 03:38 PM	#14
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,915 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,506 Times in 2,080 Posts	anytime it is a "parts" gun, it makes it harder to answer smart, because there could always be what-ifs... Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

02-24-2005, 09:14 AM	#15
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,043 Thanks: 1,032 Thanked 3,930 Times in 1,194 Posts	Can you add a picture of the muzzle crown? This makes it easier to determine whether the barrel is a later replacement.