1915 DWM Artillery Luger, Help Needed!

barr · 02-07-2003, 05:53 AM

I am looking at a !915 DWM Artillery Luger that is for sale. I know next to nothing about Lugers. I had one several years ago and had problems with it loading cartridges sidewise from time to time and got rid of it. It was a mixed no. gun that had been reblued and probably reworked here in the states.
The 1915 Luger that I am looking at is also of mixed nos. The gun looks very good with about 90% of the bluing intact except for the sideplate above the trigger which has most of the bluing worn away. The take down lever is also void of the bluing and looks as if the bluing was scraped off, it is kind of rough. The barrel still retains the bluing but it looks like there is some spotting beneath the blue, it is not pitting. It almost lost as if you can see small spots beneath the bluing, as if the bluing is faded or washed out. The gentleman who has the gun has had it for several years and doesn't think it was reblued in the past 20 years. I am curious as to if these guns were reworked in Germany during the war and that is why they have mixed nos. or if this is something that has occurred in this country perhaps 30 or so years ago.
Like I said the gun looks very good. I am looking at it from a shooting standpoint moreso than from a collectors standpoint and am wondering if the gun is worth $800. The gentleman that has the gun knows little about it and says he has never shot it. That is where the rub comes in. Are mixed no. guns apt to be problematic when it comes to their mechanical functioning? I have heard that some of these guns that were predominately hand fitted when built can have a lot of problems when parts are changed. From what I can observe it looks like the bulk of the gun is one no. but the barrel is another no. As I have said I am looking at a gun that is a good shooter and have always admired the Artillery Lugers, and think this might be good in that it is not as expensive as an all correctly no. gun would be.
I realize I am probably asking something that might not be readily answered but would appreciate any insights some of those with the knowledge would care to share with me.
I am new to Lugers and my ignorance probably shows, thanks for whatever you can tell me.
barr.

Lonnie Zimmerman · 02-07-2003, 06:36 AM

Barr; $800 for an artillery Luger shooter sounds real good to me if it has the original artillery sights.
Lonnie

Edward Tinker · 02-07-2003, 07:04 AM

Hello Barr,

Are you sure the serial numbers are wrong? What numbers are on the barrel? Not 8,82, 8,83 or something like that? Some barrels were marked with the serial and some were not.

You never know about Luger's, sometimes they shoot lousy even all matching, and some mismatched ones shoot like a charm. But of course, a matching one is more likely to have its original tolerances not messed up !

If you look on the gun auction sites, Artillery Prices, even "shooter" ones are expensive, more than $800.

barr · 02-07-2003, 01:25 PM

Ok, guys you've convinced me, and I really appreciate your help.
I am not real sure about the serial nos.< I looked at several guns and other German militaria that this gentleman had, and I really didn't pay as much attention to the Luger as I should have. I've always kind of wanted and Artillery model, and I figured this might me a good way to go.
I do some collecting, but am just really getting into it and have predominately set my sights on 'Broomhandle Mausers', of which I have been able to get a few.
Lugers seem to have a much larger variety and collecting them would require a lot of research on my part. I've been doing a lot work trying to learn about the 'Broomshandles', kinda trying to keep focused in one direction.
If I get the gun, I will definitely get back with you folks and give you all the info on it that I can.Thanks again, you're a great bunch.Barr.

Dwight Gruber · 02-07-2003, 08:10 PM

Barr,

It would be good to know how "mixed" the gun is. Look at the serial number on the front of the frame, on the left side of the receiver, and under the barrel. Do any match, or not? Is the mismatch just a part or two, or is it a "made up" gun, cobbled together out of a lot of different parts? This will affect its value, as well as its potential as a shooter.

Estimated production of 1915 LP-08s was only 15,000 pieces, the second-least production of any of the Artillery years. Even though a mismatch, a "mostly" matching gun will retain more value than a parts gun.

As far as the finish is concerned, and "were these guns reworked in Germany," nearly anything can and has been done to these guns during their 90-year life, particularly if is is a serious mismatch. The takedown lever is properly not blued.

It is nearly impossible, and patently unfair, to assay a particular Luger without personally examining it. Failing that, pictures area a crucial but useful substitute.

In my opinion, $800 is right at the top of the worth scale for any mismatched, reblued LP-08, despite the fact that retail prices for collection-quality Artilleries is skyrocketing. Strictly by way of example, I recently picked up a 1918 LP-08 at a pawn shop--70% blue, 5% straw, mismatched barrel, defaced toggle tail--for $600. Considering that your interest is shooting, you might entertain the idea of making an offer of $600, and guage the response.

You might also want to make the exchange contingent on satisfactory operation of the gun. If so, you should get a newly-made magazine for the test (I recommend Mec-Gar). Worn-out original Luger magazines are one of the most common causes of failure to function, and make an unfair test of a Luger's shooting capability. If you are going to make a practice of shooting your Luger you will want some of these magazines anyway, so it is in investment in your hobby.

If you do pick this up, we will all be excited to know the details of your new Luger, including pictures if you can.

Good luck, and enjoy.

--Dwight

barr · 02-09-2003, 08:39 AM

Ok, guys, I managed to negotiate a little better price on the Artillery Luger. Also we worked out an agreement on the mechanical functioning of the gun. If it doesn't work right he will work with me on getting it fixed.
I was wrong about a couple of important items. The gun is a 1917 DWM. There are three numbers that I have found on the gun. The barrel, the action, and the sight are all 84xx. The frame and safety indicator are 60xx. The take down lever is a third no. The barrel measures 7 in. from the front of the frame. I will post photos as soon as I can get them into a small enough file size.
Thanks again for all your help, and please inform of anything else that would help me know more about this beast. robarr44

barr · 02-09-2003, 07:13 PM

Got Pictures! ! !

Ok, I finally was able to upload photos of the 1917 artillery that I purchased. It is a mixed no.(3) gun but is in pretty good shape. Hope to get to the range this week.
Again, I will be interested in any info that anyone can supply me on this gun. I am especially curious about the proof/acceptance marks on the right side of the receiver and the one on the right side of the barrel. I believe the one on the barrel is the 'Imperial Eagle' acceptance mark, please correct me if I'm wrong, which is a good possiblilty.

The links are:

Large images here:
http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/1917Lft.jpg
http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/1917Rt.jpg
http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/1917Top.jpg
http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/1917Proofs.jpg
http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/1917Fnt.jpg

Thanks again for all the help. Barr.
PS. Please let me know if I posted these things wrong, not quite sure about what is proper.

02-07-2003, 05:53 AM	#1
barr User Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Virginia Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	1915 DWM Artillery Luger, Help Needed! I am looking at a !915 DWM Artillery Luger that is for sale. I know next to nothing about Lugers. I had one several years ago and had problems with it loading cartridges sidewise from time to time and got rid of it. It was a mixed no. gun that had been reblued and probably reworked here in the states. The 1915 Luger that I am looking at is also of mixed nos. The gun looks very good with about 90% of the bluing intact except for the sideplate above the trigger which has most of the bluing worn away. The take down lever is also void of the bluing and looks as if the bluing was scraped off, it is kind of rough. The barrel still retains the bluing but it looks like there is some spotting beneath the blue, it is not pitting. It almost lost as if you can see small spots beneath the bluing, as if the bluing is faded or washed out. The gentleman who has the gun has had it for several years and doesn't think it was reblued in the past 20 years. I am curious as to if these guns were reworked in Germany during the war and that is why they have mixed nos. or if this is something that has occurred in this country perhaps 30 or so years ago. Like I said the gun looks very good. I am looking at it from a shooting standpoint moreso than from a collectors standpoint and am wondering if the gun is worth $800. The gentleman that has the gun knows little about it and says he has never shot it. That is where the rub comes in. Are mixed no. guns apt to be problematic when it comes to their mechanical functioning? I have heard that some of these guns that were predominately hand fitted when built can have a lot of problems when parts are changed. From what I can observe it looks like the bulk of the gun is one no. but the barrel is another no. As I have said I am looking at a gun that is a good shooter and have always admired the Artillery Lugers, and think this might be good in that it is not as expensive as an all correctly no. gun would be. I realize I am probably asking something that might not be readily answered but would appreciate any insights some of those with the knowledge would care to share with me. I am new to Lugers and my ignorance probably shows, thanks for whatever you can tell me. barr.

02-07-2003, 06:36 AM	#2
Lonnie Zimmerman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 523 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Barr; $800 for an artillery Luger shooter sounds real good to me if it has the original artillery sights. Lonnie __________________ Lonnie Zimmerman

02-07-2003, 07:04 AM	#3
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,912 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,502 Times in 2,077 Posts	Hello Barr, Are you sure the serial numbers are wrong? What numbers are on the barrel? Not 8,82, 8,83 or something like that? Some barrels were marked with the serial and some were not. You never know about Luger's, sometimes they shoot lousy even all matching, and some mismatched ones shoot like a charm. But of course, a matching one is more likely to have its original tolerances not messed up ! If you look on the gun auction sites, Artillery Prices, even "shooter" ones are expensive, more than $800. __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

02-07-2003, 01:25 PM	#4
barr User Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Virginia Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Ok, guys you've convinced me, and I really appreciate your help. I am not real sure about the serial nos.< I looked at several guns and other German militaria that this gentleman had, and I really didn't pay as much attention to the Luger as I should have. I've always kind of wanted and Artillery model, and I figured this might me a good way to go. I do some collecting, but am just really getting into it and have predominately set my sights on 'Broomhandle Mausers', of which I have been able to get a few. Lugers seem to have a much larger variety and collecting them would require a lot of research on my part. I've been doing a lot work trying to learn about the 'Broomshandles', kinda trying to keep focused in one direction. If I get the gun, I will definitely get back with you folks and give you all the info on it that I can.Thanks again, you're a great bunch.Barr.

02-07-2003, 08:10 PM	#5
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	Barr, It would be good to know how "mixed" the gun is. Look at the serial number on the front of the frame, on the left side of the receiver, and under the barrel. Do any match, or not? Is the mismatch just a part or two, or is it a "made up" gun, cobbled together out of a lot of different parts? This will affect its value, as well as its potential as a shooter. Estimated production of 1915 LP-08s was only 15,000 pieces, the second-least production of any of the Artillery years. Even though a mismatch, a "mostly" matching gun will retain more value than a parts gun. As far as the finish is concerned, and "were these guns reworked in Germany," nearly anything can and has been done to these guns during their 90-year life, particularly if is is a serious mismatch. The takedown lever is properly not blued. It is nearly impossible, and patently unfair, to assay a particular Luger without personally examining it. Failing that, pictures area a crucial but useful substitute. In my opinion, $800 is right at the top of the worth scale for any mismatched, reblued LP-08, despite the fact that retail prices for collection-quality Artilleries is skyrocketing. Strictly by way of example, I recently picked up a 1918 LP-08 at a pawn shop--70% blue, 5% straw, mismatched barrel, defaced toggle tail--for $600. Considering that your interest is shooting, you might entertain the idea of making an offer of $600, and guage the response. You might also want to make the exchange contingent on satisfactory operation of the gun. If so, you should get a newly-made magazine for the test (I recommend Mec-Gar). Worn-out original Luger magazines are one of the most common causes of failure to function, and make an unfair test of a Luger's shooting capability. If you are going to make a practice of shooting your Luger you will want some of these magazines anyway, so it is in investment in your hobby. If you do pick this up, we will all be excited to know the details of your new Luger, including pictures if you can. Good luck, and enjoy. --Dwight

02-09-2003, 08:39 AM	#6
barr User Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Virginia Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Ok, guys, I managed to negotiate a little better price on the Artillery Luger. Also we worked out an agreement on the mechanical functioning of the gun. If it doesn't work right he will work with me on getting it fixed. I was wrong about a couple of important items. The gun is a 1917 DWM. There are three numbers that I have found on the gun. The barrel, the action, and the sight are all 84xx. The frame and safety indicator are 60xx. The take down lever is a third no. The barrel measures 7 in. from the front of the frame. I will post photos as soon as I can get them into a small enough file size. Thanks again for all your help, and please inform of anything else that would help me know more about this beast. robarr44

02-09-2003, 07:13 PM	#7
barr User Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Virginia Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Got Pictures! ! ! Ok, I finally was able to upload photos of the 1917 artillery that I purchased. It is a mixed no.(3) gun but is in pretty good shape. Hope to get to the range this week. Again, I will be interested in any info that anyone can supply me on this gun. I am especially curious about the proof/acceptance marks on the right side of the receiver and the one on the right side of the barrel. I believe the one on the barrel is the 'Imperial Eagle' acceptance mark, please correct me if I'm wrong, which is a good possiblilty. The links are: Large images here: http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/1917Lft.jpg http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/1917Rt.jpg http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/1917Top.jpg http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/1917Proofs.jpg http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/1917Fnt.jpg Thanks again for all the help. Barr. PS. Please let me know if I posted these things wrong, not quite sure about what is proper.