Gun Shop Report

Dwight Gruber · 03-16-2002, 09:19 PM

Found myself in Hood River (Oregon) yesterday, and stopped in at The Gun Shop (really the name of the store) which is run, if I am not mistaken, by a Mr. Jerry Kramer. There were eight or nine Lugers on display for sale, all collectible guns (including iirc a couple American Eagles, a Swiss, a Krieghoff, a byf, some others, I don't know any of the model years because I didn't actually take notes) in gorgeous shape, at correspondingly respectable prices (regrettably, out of my range). There were also a couple of perfect drum magazines, a .22 conversion kit in-box, and a couple of rigs. The prime piece there (to my eyes, anyway,) was an artillery model, again in prime shape, with matching-number stock/holster. Didn't get a chance to examine it closely, so I don't know what model the gun was, but the whole rig was for sale under $4k. I coveted.

Jerry wasn't at the store, but I did get a chance to talk to him on the telephone. Apparently he has a major collection he is willing to sell from, and that is what he stocks his store with. The folks at the store told me that this batch of Lugers is going to the Reno gun show next weekend.

If you happen to be in Hood River for the windsurfing, this store is definitely worth a visit.

--Dwight

Big Norm · 03-16-2002, 11:17 PM

A long time ago I had an occasion to call Mr. Krammer regarding some Luger magazines. I can't remember how it all came about but I believe it came about from something I read in Gun List magazine about him having Luger parts. A asked him about serial numbers on magazines. He became very upset and told me to "Buy some wood bottoms and sand off the numbers and punch in some new numbers. Thats what everybody else does!". He was definately not kidding around. I thought that he had become unusually irrational at what I considered a simple, innocent question. He actually hung up on me immediately after his rude comment. I later found out that the man has a repution for having a very bad temper with a short fuse by California people I know who are at California gun shows. I know that I will never forget his behavior.

I remember his name because it is the same last name as a University of Michigan football great and later a Minnesota football pro. He may have some good stuff but watch out for that temper. Buyer Beware!

Outside of that, $4000 seems a bit high for an artillery rig. But I would have to know more about it to say more.

Big Norm

03-17-2002, 09:01 AM

Norm, I'm very surprised to learn of your experience with Jerry K. Perhaps you caught him on a bad day. He and I used to swap parts at the California shows and I alway found him to be a good natured fellow that I could do business with. He may not be the historical purist, as are some on this site, but I've found him an honest dealer that you can rely on his word. Perhaps, he was being a bit too honest with you. Tom h

Russ · 03-17-2002, 10:52 AM

i have delt with jerry for years and have always been treeted fair. everyone has a bad day once in a wile. even me

my opinion

russ

Orv Reichert · 03-17-2002, 12:54 PM

I have known Kramer for years...he is a dealer and not a collector but my dealings with him have been 100% and he always performs as agreed.

He is not into the technical crap that most of us love ....he is a DEALER!

He has had some health problems recently...I can only presume you caught him on a bad day.

Orv Reichert

Big Norm · 03-17-2002, 04:05 PM

Please don't infer that I am in any way suggesting that Mr. Krammer is dishonest. I have never seen his goods or had any business with him other than what I stated. To me, collecting is suposed to be fun and I enjoy my little hobby. But when I hit somebody who is particularly rude for what I deem to be no reason at all, then I don't hold back with my opinion. I know that I won't do business with this guy in any way in the future. I was upset after I talked to Mr. Krammer and I talked to at least two other dealers who had tables and knew Mr. Krammer at California shows. They sort of laughed a little snicker about my experience.

Now, I was looking for specific Luger magazine serial numbers (I always carry a list with me whenever I go to a show). Mr Krammer was the first that I had found to be rude but by no means has he been the only one. There is a guy at the Ohio Gun Collectors Assoc. who has a display case filled the what I guess would be a hundred or so Luger magazines. I asked him if I could look at his stack of magazines and he blew his stack. It eats my heart out to pass by his table, but I have never bothered to look at his goods again. There is another guy at the same show who sells gun parts. He told me "You luger guys always want parts with your serial numbers. I have not got the time to waste with you people". EXCUSE ME! I am a customer, if you look at the direction of the money flow you will see just who is doing who a favor. If you don't want to sell your goods, then what are you doing trying to sell them?

Now I realise the some customers can also be rude. I also realise that the people who have these tables sit there for long hours in frequently high humidity conditions and are pretty tired. They are probably very bored. But I also realise that I will not get what I want if I act like a creep. So I go out of my way to be polite and curtious to people at the shows. I also have made many friends at these shows and that alone has made my hobby a lot more fun and worthwhile.

Big Norm

03-17-2002, 05:16 PM

As hard as it is for some arrogant people to hear, many gun show dealers are very poor business people. They have no concept of service, polite business practices, and in some cases, honesty. The result is a jaded attitude on both sides of the table. There are several dealers whom I avoid entirely. Yes, they have inventory that is interesting but I am one of the ten most avid buyers of lugers and accessories in the region and the sellers' bad behavior ensures that one potential buyer never comes to them. In the long run, they lose money needlessly.

Got to laugh at the seller who "doesn't have time" to provide customer service to a collector. They sit on a chair and whine all weekend, insulting the "tire kickers", but can't seem to find time to do anything but collect money. Lazy, nothing more.

David Jackson · 03-17-2002, 05:46 PM

Fun at shows - Went to a little local show yesterday. Talk about shrewd businessmen!

Saw a cyq P.38 - now I don't know much about the P.38 but isn't the cyq a pretty common variety with quite crude workmanship? I don't care about P.38s much but always thought a shooter would be fun.

This one; finish - what's that? dents and dings, - plenty of those! Price $1100!!!

Talk about shrewd business sense!

03-17-2002, 06:26 PM

Couple of six or eights months ago I went to a once a month trade day in a small town, usual stuff but there was one dude with some WWII stuff, nothing outstanding but still interesting. He saw my interest and a few questions were asked, ect, then he got me to the side and quietly asked "Wanna buy a P38?" Thinking a great deal in the making, we went behind his 74 Ford PU, he looked left & right, pulled a rag from under the seat, and out came the most ragged busted up rusted pitiful looking gun I've ever seen. And a deal at $650. Told him I would but my wife was with me (and she was) and she wouldn't let me buy any more guns (and she won't).

Roadkill

Big Norm · 03-17-2002, 11:28 PM

I did not mean to nail all gun dealers. Most certainly I have met some class acts. Joe Smith who is the son of Doug Smith of FGS is truely a class act. He saved me from getting emotional over some bad buys and making a "mistake". So is Ralph Shattuck and Don Hallock. I have had some nice discussions with Syd Rachwal Jr and of course Simpson. John Martz is not really a dealer but his class is undeniable. The gentleman at RayJack is super nice. He helped me get into the NAPCA without me even buying anything off of him. I just read in Gun List magazine that Clark might be back with FGS and I really liked doing business with him. Usually I look for the small dealers who are not well known. I can joke around and wheel and deal with them. There are a bunch of nice guys in that group. Of course there are the local guys here in Michigan who are not nationally known and not on the internet who are real nice. I have met some guys on the forum via Email who I really want to meet. I don't know if they sell Lugers. They just might be just Lugerheads like me. I didn't mean to paint all dealers with a wide paint brush.

Big Norm

03-18-2002, 08:33 AM

Big Norm, After assisting a hundred or so PO8 collectors looking for a matching magazine, and knowing the chances are just slightly better than winning the lottery (2 chances out of about 2 million lugers made of finding the exactly correct type, finish, serial & proof), I long ago decided not to waste my time looking either. If some one just request the correct type, without regard to serial, I'm happy to help them. Tom h

03-18-2002, 02:44 PM

I agree that we should not suggest all dealers (or all buyers for that matter) are unethical and rude. A great many are outstanding people and make collecting more fun than it already is. At the Tanner show last weekend, I met several sellers who had great personalities and who were very pleasant. There was not one bad actor in my traveling around the show on Sat morning. Now, I might not want to pay $1750 for that 1903A3 but the seller was very pleasant!

Big Norm · 03-20-2002, 03:34 AM

Tom H,

Unfortuately, I know what you are saying. But searching for the correct serial number on a magazine is part of the fun and challenge of collecting Lugers. Many people understand this and some just don't get it. Don Hallock publishes his list of available magazines. He goes through a lot of trouble to publish that list. And he isn't going to get rich on it. A true collector who respects the historical makeup of the Luger or any other collectible weapon will look for the appropriate matching magazine, part or other accessory.

People on this forum are always asking questions trying to understand just what kind of magazine and markings that their Luger should have. Numerous books have been written about Lugers, their markings and the magazines that belong with them. And many of these books have been sold. Don't you understand why this is all being done?

In any case, the obnoxious behavior of Mr.Krammer and his abrupt hanging up on me can not be justified. I can understand the shallowness of some sellers of collectibles of any kind. I can walk away from people who hold that train of thought without getting hostile about it. But I just don't like it when they are rude about it.

03-16-2002, 09:19 PM	#1
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	Gun Shop Report Found myself in Hood River (Oregon) yesterday, and stopped in at The Gun Shop (really the name of the store) which is run, if I am not mistaken, by a Mr. Jerry Kramer. There were eight or nine Lugers on display for sale, all collectible guns (including iirc a couple American Eagles, a Swiss, a Krieghoff, a byf, some others, I don't know any of the model years because I didn't actually take notes) in gorgeous shape, at correspondingly respectable prices (regrettably, out of my range). There were also a couple of perfect drum magazines, a .22 conversion kit in-box, and a couple of rigs. The prime piece there (to my eyes, anyway,) was an artillery model, again in prime shape, with matching-number stock/holster. Didn't get a chance to examine it closely, so I don't know what model the gun was, but the whole rig was for sale under $4k. I coveted. Jerry wasn't at the store, but I did get a chance to talk to him on the telephone. Apparently he has a major collection he is willing to sell from, and that is what he stocks his store with. The folks at the store told me that this batch of Lugers is going to the Reno gun show next weekend. If you happen to be in Hood River for the windsurfing, this store is definitely worth a visit. --Dwight

03-16-2002, 11:17 PM	#2
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Buyer Beware! A long time ago I had an occasion to call Mr. Krammer regarding some Luger magazines. I can't remember how it all came about but I believe it came about from something I read in Gun List magazine about him having Luger parts. A asked him about serial numbers on magazines. He became very upset and told me to "Buy some wood bottoms and sand off the numbers and punch in some new numbers. Thats what everybody else does!". He was definately not kidding around. I thought that he had become unusually irrational at what I considered a simple, innocent question. He actually hung up on me immediately after his rude comment. I later found out that the man has a repution for having a very bad temper with a short fuse by California people I know who are at California gun shows. I know that I will never forget his behavior. I remember his name because it is the same last name as a University of Michigan football great and later a Minnesota football pro. He may have some good stuff but watch out for that temper. Buyer Beware! Outside of that, $4000 seems a bit high for an artillery rig. But I would have to know more about it to say more. Big Norm

03-17-2002, 09:01 AM	#3
tom h Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Buyer Beware! Norm, I'm very surprised to learn of your experience with Jerry K. Perhaps you caught him on a bad day. He and I used to swap parts at the California shows and I alway found him to be a good natured fellow that I could do business with. He may not be the historical purist, as are some on this site, but I've found him an honest dealer that you can rely on his word. Perhaps, he was being a bit too honest with you. Tom h

03-17-2002, 10:52 AM	#4
Russ User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Reading, PA. Posts: 628 Thanks: 2 Thanked 38 Times in 10 Posts	Re: Buyer Beware! i have delt with jerry for years and have always been treeted fair. everyone has a bad day once in a wile. even me my opinion russ

03-17-2002, 12:54 PM	#5
Orv Reichert RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SW Washington State Posts: 339 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Kramer I have known Kramer for years...he is a dealer and not a collector but my dealings with him have been 100% and he always performs as agreed. He is not into the technical crap that most of us love ....he is a DEALER! He has had some health problems recently...I can only presume you caught him on a bad day. Orv Reichert

03-17-2002, 04:05 PM	#6
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Re: Buyer Beware! Please don't infer that I am in any way suggesting that Mr. Krammer is dishonest. I have never seen his goods or had any business with him other than what I stated. To me, collecting is suposed to be fun and I enjoy my little hobby. But when I hit somebody who is particularly rude for what I deem to be no reason at all, then I don't hold back with my opinion. I know that I won't do business with this guy in any way in the future. I was upset after I talked to Mr. Krammer and I talked to at least two other dealers who had tables and knew Mr. Krammer at California shows. They sort of laughed a little snicker about my experience. Now, I was looking for specific Luger magazine serial numbers (I always carry a list with me whenever I go to a show). Mr Krammer was the first that I had found to be rude but by no means has he been the only one. There is a guy at the Ohio Gun Collectors Assoc. who has a display case filled the what I guess would be a hundred or so Luger magazines. I asked him if I could look at his stack of magazines and he blew his stack. It eats my heart out to pass by his table, but I have never bothered to look at his goods again. There is another guy at the same show who sells gun parts. He told me "You luger guys always want parts with your serial numbers. I have not got the time to waste with you people". EXCUSE ME! I am a customer, if you look at the direction of the money flow you will see just who is doing who a favor. If you don't want to sell your goods, then what are you doing trying to sell them? Now I realise the some customers can also be rude. I also realise that the people who have these tables sit there for long hours in frequently high humidity conditions and are pretty tired. They are probably very bored. But I also realise that I will not get what I want if I act like a creep. So I go out of my way to be polite and curtious to people at the shows. I also have made many friends at these shows and that alone has made my hobby a lot more fun and worthwhile. Big Norm

03-17-2002, 05:16 PM	#7
mlm Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Buyer Beware! As hard as it is for some arrogant people to hear, many gun show dealers are very poor business people. They have no concept of service, polite business practices, and in some cases, honesty. The result is a jaded attitude on both sides of the table. There are several dealers whom I avoid entirely. Yes, they have inventory that is interesting but I am one of the ten most avid buyers of lugers and accessories in the region and the sellers' bad behavior ensures that one potential buyer never comes to them. In the long run, they lose money needlessly. Got to laugh at the seller who "doesn't have time" to provide customer service to a collector. They sit on a chair and whine all weekend, insulting the "tire kickers", but can't seem to find time to do anything but collect money. Lazy, nothing more.

03-17-2002, 05:46 PM	#8
David Jackson User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Magalia, California Posts: 135 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Buyer Beware! Fun at shows - Went to a little local show yesterday. Talk about shrewd businessmen! Saw a cyq P.38 - now I don't know much about the P.38 but isn't the cyq a pretty common variety with quite crude workmanship? I don't care about P.38s much but always thought a shooter would be fun. This one; finish - what's that? dents and dings, - plenty of those! Price $1100!!! Talk about shrewd business sense!

03-17-2002, 06:26 PM	#9
R. Grady/Roadkill Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Buyer Beware! Couple of six or eights months ago I went to a once a month trade day in a small town, usual stuff but there was one dude with some WWII stuff, nothing outstanding but still interesting. He saw my interest and a few questions were asked, ect, then he got me to the side and quietly asked "Wanna buy a P38?" Thinking a great deal in the making, we went behind his 74 Ford PU, he looked left & right, pulled a rag from under the seat, and out came the most ragged busted up rusted pitiful looking gun I've ever seen. And a deal at $650. Told him I would but my wife was with me (and she was) and she wouldn't let me buy any more guns (and she won't). Roadkill

03-17-2002, 11:28 PM	#10
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Class Acts I did not mean to nail all gun dealers. Most certainly I have met some class acts. Joe Smith who is the son of Doug Smith of FGS is truely a class act. He saved me from getting emotional over some bad buys and making a "mistake". So is Ralph Shattuck and Don Hallock. I have had some nice discussions with Syd Rachwal Jr and of course Simpson. John Martz is not really a dealer but his class is undeniable. The gentleman at RayJack is super nice. He helped me get into the NAPCA without me even buying anything off of him. I just read in Gun List magazine that Clark might be back with FGS and I really liked doing business with him. Usually I look for the small dealers who are not well known. I can joke around and wheel and deal with them. There are a bunch of nice guys in that group. Of course there are the local guys here in Michigan who are not nationally known and not on the internet who are real nice. I have met some guys on the forum via Email who I really want to meet. I don't know if they sell Lugers. They just might be just Lugerheads like me. I didn't mean to paint all dealers with a wide paint brush. Big Norm

03-18-2002, 08:33 AM	#11
tom h Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Buyer Beware! Big Norm, After assisting a hundred or so PO8 collectors looking for a matching magazine, and knowing the chances are just slightly better than winning the lottery (2 chances out of about 2 million lugers made of finding the exactly correct type, finish, serial & proof), I long ago decided not to waste my time looking either. If some one just request the correct type, without regard to serial, I'm happy to help them. Tom h

03-18-2002, 02:44 PM	#12
mlm Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Class Acts I agree that we should not suggest all dealers (or all buyers for that matter) are unethical and rude. A great many are outstanding people and make collecting more fun than it already is. At the Tanner show last weekend, I met several sellers who had great personalities and who were very pleasant. There was not one bad actor in my traveling around the show on Sat morning. Now, I might not want to pay $1750 for that 1903A3 but the seller was very pleasant!

03-20-2002, 03:34 AM	#13
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Re: Buyer Beware! Tom H, Unfortuately, I know what you are saying. But searching for the correct serial number on a magazine is part of the fun and challenge of collecting Lugers. Many people understand this and some just don't get it. Don Hallock publishes his list of available magazines. He goes through a lot of trouble to publish that list. And he isn't going to get rich on it. A true collector who respects the historical makeup of the Luger or any other collectible weapon will look for the appropriate matching magazine, part or other accessory. People on this forum are always asking questions trying to understand just what kind of magazine and markings that their Luger should have. Numerous books have been written about Lugers, their markings and the magazines that belong with them. And many of these books have been sold. Don't you understand why this is all being done? In any case, the obnoxious behavior of Mr.Krammer and his abrupt hanging up on me can not be justified. I can understand the shallowness of some sellers of collectibles of any kind. I can walk away from people who hold that train of thought without getting hostile about it. But I just don't like it when they are rude about it.