American Eagle Luger, model 1900?

[Balder]

Hi all,

I recently acquired what I think is a model 1900. It has the eagle over the chamber, old style toggle and DWM on the toggle. Serial # 73XX. The problem is, I don't know what caliber it is, because somebody drilled the bore with a 9mm drill (!) at some stage. Does anybody know anything about this gun? Is it possible to get a replacement barrel? Would a lining in the correct caliber be an idea and technically possible? Why are these guns equipped with the eagle, were they exported to the US at some stage?

Thanks!

Balder

[Edward Tinker]

Balder, at first glance it does appear it is an AE model. Placing a marking on top of the chamber was something that DWM did as a marketing tool, so you will find Bulgarian, Russian, Swiss, etc., markings on the chambers of guns sent to their country under contract or for sale.
There were test guns made for the US in testing the Luger for possible adoption as the new pistol, but your's at serial number 73xx is just out of the range by several hundred.

Relining is an option and would preserve more value than re-barreling. Both wil dimish the value, although if it has been "drilled", much collector value has been lost.

There are lots of threads on American Eagles and you can do a search both on the Old Board and the new board and re-read many discussions.

Can you tell us any other markings on the gun?

Proofs? (see on your left under tech information if you came through www.lugerforum.com) Tell us what and where proofs and markings are located.

There are forms in this section, where you can print out and then write down pertinent information.

What serial number is on the gun? To include any letters next to or under the serial number?

What year or letters are stamped on the top of the receiver?

What initials or letters are on the toggle?

Can you provide pictures, to include side, top, etc?

[Balder]

Edward,

Thanks for a very quick reply, highly appreciated.

The gun has the American eagle over the chamber, with
the "Epluribus Unum" inscription. Other than the serial number, there are no other markings except from the DWM on the toggle. There is no year of production, no production code, no proof stamps and no shoulder stock recess on the backstrap. Barrel length is 4 3/4", it has a grip safety. I'll post a pic when I figure out how to post it on this board. Btw, I am a Norwegian collector of pre-1945 guns and I have owned several Lugers, at present I have two. The other one is a straight S/42 from 1938.

Thanks,

Balder

[Big Norm]

I have a friend in Borgheim, Norway who knows a WW2 Luger collector in Tonsberg, Norway by the name of Derek Schei. Try him at www.dereksmilitria.no Maybe he can help you.
Big Norm

[Ron Wood]

The 9mm was not introduced until the 1902 model around serial number 22,000. Your 1900 American Eagle was intended for the US market and was in 7.65mm. Finding a replacement barrel may be difficult since the 1900 had the "long frame" and a later model barrel will not fit. Perhaps a good used barrel might be found.

The lack of proof marks and "GERMANY" export marking would make your Luger one of the so called "out of range" examples which may or may not have been one of the US Test series.

[Lugerdoc]

Balder, I have quite a few M1900 long receiver used barrels in stock. If your luger is matching, it probably would be best to have your matching barrel relined. Tom H.

[Balder]

Gentlemen,

I will never stop being impressed by the all the knowledge that is out there, be it guns or anything else - thanks all of you. However, I think my gun was originally made in .30 Luger (7.63mm) since the front end of the bolt fits that caliber perfectly. The .32 round is too small to make a good fit. As we all know, the base diameter of a .30 Luger is the same as a 9mm round.

Lugerdoc, I might be interested in buying a barrel from you, just so I can fire it (as a collector, I have this principle of shooting all my guns from time to time). I forgot to mention that the pistol has a grip safety. This is a family heirloom, so I'll regard it as such, not as a shooter.

BTW, I am looking for a 50-round drum for my M1928 Thompson.

Regards,

Balder

[lugerlou]

you have been getting good advice, my 1900 american eagle serial #8444 has germany stamped on front of frame, has 44 on rear toggle, american eagle crest on chamber,cal 30 or 7/65 mm no stock lug .this one is all original so hope info helps

[lugerlou]

Ps I would be extremely carefull and use light loads if you intend to fire your luger, you have a leaf spring instead of a coil spring and they are very expensive and hard to find.

[Dwight Gruber]

Balder and Lugerlou,

Model 1900 leaf springs are not -that- expensive, and they can be found pretty easily. I bought a new-manufactured one from Tom Heller not too long ago, iirc he charged me $50 for it.

If you are going to shoot your 1900 I would recommend you put in a new recoil spring anyway. These springs get weak over a hundred years, I'm sure that, if not for the toggle lock, I could have worked the action on mine by simply shaking it hard.

Even the new springs are not very powerful. When I shoot my 1900 (rest assured that it is -defintiely- a shooting-quality gun) I find that loads which are powerful enough to operate a 1920s-era .30 Commercial are way too powerful for the 1900, it really -cracks- the toggle stop against the back of the frame. I find that Fiocci .30 Luger, not normally powerful enough for a coil-spring Luger, is exactly what suits a flat-spring gun.

--Dwight

[Balder]

Gentlemen,

Thanks again for your knowledge and your concern for the Luger and my health (in that sequence) in case I decide to fire it. Firing in this case would mean one clip, tops - just so I can live up to my priciple of firing all of my collectibles. I have several guns for sporting/competition, but I try to shoot all my guns from time to time. Please check out the website of my local collectors' association:

http://www.rvf.no/rvfnetsceng.html

Balder

[Balder]

My good friend Steve pointed me in the direction of Springfield Armory's website
http://www.nps.gov/spar/pphtml/newse...etail5027.html

where they give a different serial number range for the 1000 Lugers tested. Their range 5800-7800 contains my 73XX. Does anybody know more?

Balder

[Edward Tinker]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">LUGER PISTOL M1900 AMERICAN EAGLE SECOND ISSUE 7.65MM U.S. ARMY TRIALS

The listed serial number represent 770 pistols purchased by Bannerman & Sons from the United States Government Arsenal at Springfield Armory in 1906. These are the only documented specimens of trial pistols issued by the U.S. Army from 1901-1905. The original order from Deutsche Waffen und Munitionsfabriken, Germany was for 1000 pistols. The 230 pistols whose serial numbers are not shown were probably rendered useless in various tests. It is quite possible however that a small number of these unrecorded specimens came into private hands. 6176-6196 6282 6361-7108 7147 There is no definite marking employed by the United States Government which will positively identify these pistols. Any stamped letters, numbers or ordnance type flaming bombs found on the frame or receiver can not be attributed to any United States government agency. If a M1900 American Eagle, second issue pistol is suspected of being a trial specimen it will have the following characteristics: 1. Serial number range 5800 to 7800. 2. The word Germany will not appear on the pistol. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Not to be difficult, but this is stated range of bannermans sold by the gov't (the normal accepted range) 6176-6196 6282 6361-7108 7147 and *then* they state 5800 to 7800. It would be interesting to see why they change their own range? It doesn't include the *missing* 230 even?

I would e-mail or snail mail and ask for clarification, because it doesn't make sense numerically.

Ed

[Balder]

Ed,

The way I read their rather clumsily formulated posting is that the 6176-6196 6282 6361-7108 7147 guns were among the 230 guns unaccounted for. To me, it makes perfect sense that you pick 1000 guns from a wider production range than a thousand guns in numerical sequence, especially if your purpose is to test them.

And, after all, this seems to be a government site, published by the same entity that bought these guns in the first place.

I am thinking of having the matching barrel relined in its original .30 Luger caliber, in stead of buying a replacement as I feel this would be the most correct - although twice the price. Suggestions anybody?

Balder

[Ron Wood]

Balder,

I am in the process of trying to track down the source of the serial number range, 5800-7800, from the folks at Springfield Armory. I have left a voice mail for the gentleman that made that entry on their website. I will let everyone know what I find out.

I would appreciate very much knowing the last two digits of your Luger's serial number to add to my list of known Lugers in or near the range of the test pieces. you can send me a private message if you wish. I have recorded 7303, 7304, 7319, 7332, 7346 and 7348 in the 7300 range.

If it is not prohibitively expensive, I would recommend relining your original matching barrel to 7.65mm/.30 Luger rather than replacing it. Although it will still not be "original" it will be a lot closer than if it was replaced.

[Ron Wood]

If you add up the number of Lugers included in the Bannerman purchase you will come up with 772 (not 770 as it appears in most literature). The range 6361-7108 includes both the beginning serial number and the ending serial number so it accounts for 749 weapons (and not 748 which is the difference between the two numbers). The same applies for 6176-6196 which is 21 weapons. Adding in the two single examples, 6282 and 7147, you get 772. I think that faiure to take this into account resulted in the 770 figure.

At any rate, 1000 minus 770 is 230, the number of "missing" pieces (actually should be 228).

[Edward Tinker]

Balder, I am going by memory, but these numbers usually represent the guns bought by Bannerman, so the numbers are right for the 700 odd they purchased.

[Balder]

After all this discussion and flow of information, I had to take the pistol apart again, this time looking closely for markings. I did find the "flying bomb" on the receiver, right in front of the locking lug. It's about 2 millimeters. There's also one inside the frame, just behind the position of the locking bolt. Will this increase the chances of this gun being one of the 1000 test Lugers? Also, the inside of the sideplate is stamped with a W (or M).

Jammed in between the backstrap and the main springs there was this shiny little piece of metal. I'm guessing that the genius who drilled it to 9mm found the recoil a bit hefty and increased the spring tension with this little piece of metal. Or is it supposed to be there?

Thanks!

Balder

[Ron Wood]

It does sound like a home-made modification to increase the spring tension. Is there any chance you could post a photo? I have never seen any modification like this, and I would think that a change in the flexing points of the spring would make it quite prone to breakage.

[Dwight Gruber]

Balder,

Current smart money is on the consensus is that the "bomb" mark has nothing to do with the Test Eagles, but is probably a Luger workers' inspection mark. I have a regular American Eagle with the mark, and if you do a search in the Forum you will find several discussions on exactly this topic.

...and Ron,

My 1900AE had a piece of wood jammed into the same place. The spring was extremely weak--I mean wet-noodle-weak--and I presumed that a previous owner placed it there to try to increase the tension.

I'm really curious to know where these springs actually fracture, when they do break. After experiencing the weak spring and piece of wood, and installing a newly manufactured spring, I don't think that changing that flex point would increase the breakage possibility very much. Just my .02.

--Dwight