Need info and price check on 1906 commercial .30

Olle · 11-30-2015, 06:49 PM

A customer has asked me to sell his collection of C&R guns, and one of them is a 1906 commercial in .30. I have looked it up, checked the features etc and everything seemed to check out until I flipped the safety. It has the correct "up safety", but the milled area underneath is blued. You can see that it has been milled, but the finish is exactly the same as on the rest of the frame. It has not darkened by age or been touched up, it looks like it has been blued at the same time as the frame. On every other "up safety" Luger I have seen, there has either been a milled area in the white or the text "Gesichert", so this kinda stumped me.

The inside of the frame is in the white just like it should be, and the bluing looks entirely original, so I doubt that it has been reblued. It looks a bit dark in some of the pictures, but the finish is the correct "Luger blue" rust bluing. So what gives? Is it some kind of factory rework, or did some of these come without the bare steel milling?

I would also appreciate your ideas on the value. The pictures should give you a pretty good idea about the condition, the bore has sharp and deep rifling but is a bit dull and has some scattered, shallow pitting, and I assume that the magazine is correct. I'm going to put the guns on Gunbroker so I need to figure out what a reasonable reserve should be, and I'm sure you guys will know exactly what it's worth.

Dwight Gruber · 11-30-2015, 07:38 PM

There is a pin running through the toggle which holds the center toggle axle in place. The top of the pin is visible at the top of the toggle near the left knob. This pin is properly "in the white", as it is installed when the gun is reassembled after its original bluing. In the phto you show, the pin is clearly blued.

This pin, and the blued safety area you already point out, are indications that the pistol has indeed undergone substantial, if not complete, reblue. Are there "halos" around the marks underneath the barrel?

What is the serial number?

From the initial photos, the magazine may be the best part of the gun.

--Dwight

DavidJayUden · 11-30-2015, 07:54 PM

Is the tip of the toggle pin blued? Muzzle? It certainly looks like old bluing, but is it the original bluing?
I'm not really up to speed on these models, but it seems like they are generally in the $1500 to $2200 range.
That does look like a very nice, presentable gun, regardless.
Thanks for sharing.
dju

alvin · 11-30-2015, 08:21 PM

Should be a reblue. The ejector finish on this one is not correct either.

Olle · 11-30-2015, 08:33 PM

The serial number is 65754, which I believe is in the right range for the 1906 commercial.

The tip of the pin is not blued, so it has obviously been installed before the bluing. The slots behind the knobs and the recess for the coupling link are in the white, which I believe is the case on all factory rust blued guns. I just disassembled it, and it appears to be finished just like the factory did, with some of the inside being in the white.

I can't really see a halo around the numbers on the barrel, maybe a little bit of frosting but very little. The ridges around the numbers are still there, so it has not been polished. The rest of the stamps are also nice and crisp, and there are none of the roundovers you will normally find on a reblued gun.

If this is a reblue, it has been very professionally done, to the point where you would think that it's a factory job. The inside of the frame has very sharp lines between blued and white areas, exactly like what you would find on a factory blued gun. I don't know if they ever reworked any commercial models though. From what I gather, they did rework some parts and guns at the time of model changes, just to be able to recycle what they had in inventory. I can't really see why they would have done that on this one though.

So I guess the question now is if this could be a factory rework of some kind. The finish has clearly got a lot of age on it, so I'm sure it's not a modern day restoration or a fake. I mean, if anybody had the knowledge and patience to finish everything to factory specs, why leave a stupid pin out? And looking at how crisp the gun is, why would it have needed a refinish in the first place?

alvin · 11-30-2015, 08:47 PM

If it's Swiss, then everything makes sense.

In advertisement, you can just say 96% blue without addressing other stuffs. Many auction houses doing that too. But that may not work well in Luger domain. I sold a couple of Lugers in public sites, and found all queriers are forum members, and they know more than me

Olle · 11-30-2015, 08:48 PM

Some more pictures... Took them in a hurry, but I hope they are good enough to show the areas that are in the white, and the quality of the bluing. Looks like a factory job to me, but I'm not so sure anymore.

alvin · 11-30-2015, 08:55 PM

Is the front sight fire blued? Are there fine machining tool marks on right side the frame ear? Please post more pictures.

DavidJayUden · 11-30-2015, 08:57 PM

So what price are you leaning toward?
dju

Olle · 11-30-2015, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alvin

If it's Swiss, then everything makes sense.

In advertisement, you can just say 96% blue. But that may not work well in Luger domain. I sold a couple of Lugers in public sites, and found all queriers are forum members, and they know more than me

So I need to find the correct Swiss stamp, apply it and I'm all set.

It's not my gun, so I don't really care if it's a reblue or not. I will probably do just what you said and not even say anything about the percentage, just attach a whole bunch of pictures so the more educated buyers can make up their own opinion. I would like to do an honest write-up though, and of course: It's also a matter of my own curiosity. What really puzzles me is the age and the quality of the job. If this is a reblue, it would be a factory style restoration type job. People do that nowadays, but the aging makes it look like it was done 100 years ago...? That part just doesn't make any sense to me at all.

alvin · 11-30-2015, 09:19 PM

I don't think someone intentionally aged it. Assume it's a little bit worn, and owner had it reblued by a gunsmith in 1930s (just for example),,,, many people doing that on their guns in tool stage (even today). Since it's a tool, they did not care much on "correct" finish. Personally, I reworked a few SKS for fun (stock only, not metal. Original SKS stock does not look pretty in my eyes) . Currently, no one cares,,,, say, 80 years later, SKS collectors will hold my gun wondering why this one looks so special.

Olle · 11-30-2015, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alvin

Is the front sight fire blued? Are there fine machining tool marks on right side the frame ear? Please post more pictures.

Ok, some more pictures coming up. There are fine tool mark in the recessed area in front of the right ear, right above the grip panel. Not sure if I managed to capture it in the picture, but they're like longitudinal grinding marks. Not so much in the ears though, you can see some milling swirl but not much. I can't really see any signs of bubba buffing, but then again: I don't know exactly what it looked like from the factory either.

I doubt that the sight is fire blued, the dovetail may look like it but the rest doesn't. The sight appears to be blued on the gun, and it seems to have the top of the dovetail part filed flush with the sight base. It also has a staked witness mark, like you would find on factory adjusted guns.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidJayUden

So what price are you leaning toward?
dju

Well, I was hoping that you guys would figure out that part...

Olle · 11-30-2015, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alvin

I don't think someone intentionally aged it. Assume it's a little bit worn, and owner had it reblued by a gunsmith in 1930s (just for example),,,, many people doing that on their guns in tool stage (even today). Since it's a tool, they did not care much on "correct" finish. Personally, I reworked a few SKS for fun (stock only, not metal. Original SKS stock does not look pretty in my eyes) . Currently, no one cares,,,, say, 80 years later, SKS collectors will hold my gun wondering why this one looks so special.

Yeah, if this is a reblue, it was not done after the war when Lugers were a dime a dozen, it was clearly done when they were still prized possessions. That's what the aging indicates as well.

alvin · 11-30-2015, 09:33 PM

The lanyard loop is worn. That's very unusual on civilian guns. This one should have served in certain military or paramilitary personal's hand in the past...

DonVoigt · 11-30-2015, 10:21 PM

Ollie,
your pictures are good, I think it also a "good" re-finish.

The areas that should be in the white, are not really completely white, but were covered fairly well and then the bluing polished back where it should not be, but the white areas are just not clean, in side the ears and bottom of the rails especially.

Add that to the blued pin, the blued over area that should be polished, and the wrong color on the ejector, and the evidence adds up to re-finish. Some of the areas that should show crisp polish lines are "soft", at least that is the way I describe it, like the outside of the ears and the bevel on the right side top of the receiver in one group of pictures.

I don't know what to say about the value, you will just have to look at the usual places and pick a number, just remember you can always go down in price!

Ron Wood · 11-30-2015, 11:14 PM

I will give you $1000 for it. Take it from there.

Ron

Lugerdoc · 12-01-2015, 08:09 AM

A nice restoration. Not perfect, but well done. TH

Olle · 12-01-2015, 08:21 PM

Ok, thanks for the info! I informed the owner, and he decided to put a $1850 reserve on it. We'll see if it flies...

11-30-2015, 06:49 PM	#1
Olle User Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 1,149 Thanks: 159 Thanked 663 Times in 318 Posts	Need info and price check on 1906 commercial .30 A customer has asked me to sell his collection of C&R guns, and one of them is a 1906 commercial in .30. I have looked it up, checked the features etc and everything seemed to check out until I flipped the safety. It has the correct "up safety", but the milled area underneath is blued. You can see that it has been milled, but the finish is exactly the same as on the rest of the frame. It has not darkened by age or been touched up, it looks like it has been blued at the same time as the frame. On every other "up safety" Luger I have seen, there has either been a milled area in the white or the text "Gesichert", so this kinda stumped me. The inside of the frame is in the white just like it should be, and the bluing looks entirely original, so I doubt that it has been reblued. It looks a bit dark in some of the pictures, but the finish is the correct "Luger blue" rust bluing. So what gives? Is it some kind of factory rework, or did some of these come without the bare steel milling? I would also appreciate your ideas on the value. The pictures should give you a pretty good idea about the condition, the bore has sharp and deep rifling but is a bit dull and has some scattered, shallow pitting, and I assume that the magazine is correct. I'm going to put the guns on Gunbroker so I need to figure out what a reasonable reserve should be, and I'm sure you guys will know exactly what it's worth. Attached Thumbnails

11-30-2015, 08:48 PM	#7
Olle User Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 1,149 Thanks: 159 Thanked 663 Times in 318 Posts	Some more pictures... Took them in a hurry, but I hope they are good enough to show the areas that are in the white, and the quality of the bluing. Looks like a factory job to me, but I'm not so sure anymore. Attached Thumbnails

11-30-2015, 11:14 PM	#16
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	I will give you $1000 for it. Take it from there. Ron __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

12-01-2015, 08:09 AM	#17
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	A nice restoration. Not perfect, but well done. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

11-30-2015, 07:38 PM	#2
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,889 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,281 Times in 423 Posts	There is a pin running through the toggle which holds the center toggle axle in place. The top of the pin is visible at the top of the toggle near the left knob. This pin is properly "in the white", as it is installed when the gun is reassembled after its original bluing. In the phto you show, the pin is clearly blued. This pin, and the blued safety area you already point out, are indications that the pistol has indeed undergone substantial, if not complete, reblue. Are there "halos" around the marks underneath the barrel? What is the serial number? From the initial photos, the magazine may be the best part of the gun. --Dwight

11-30-2015, 07:54 PM	#3
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	Is the tip of the toggle pin blued? Muzzle? It certainly looks like old bluing, but is it the original bluing? I'm not really up to speed on these models, but it seems like they are generally in the $1500 to $2200 range. That does look like a very nice, presentable gun, regardless. Thanks for sharing. dju

11-30-2015, 08:21 PM	#4
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Should be a reblue. The ejector finish on this one is not correct either.

11-30-2015, 08:33 PM	#5
Olle User Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 1,149 Thanks: 159 Thanked 663 Times in 318 Posts	The serial number is 65754, which I believe is in the right range for the 1906 commercial. The tip of the pin is not blued, so it has obviously been installed before the bluing. The slots behind the knobs and the recess for the coupling link are in the white, which I believe is the case on all factory rust blued guns. I just disassembled it, and it appears to be finished just like the factory did, with some of the inside being in the white. I can't really see a halo around the numbers on the barrel, maybe a little bit of frosting but very little. The ridges around the numbers are still there, so it has not been polished. The rest of the stamps are also nice and crisp, and there are none of the roundovers you will normally find on a reblued gun. If this is a reblue, it has been very professionally done, to the point where you would think that it's a factory job. The inside of the frame has very sharp lines between blued and white areas, exactly like what you would find on a factory blued gun. I don't know if they ever reworked any commercial models though. From what I gather, they did rework some parts and guns at the time of model changes, just to be able to recycle what they had in inventory. I can't really see why they would have done that on this one though. So I guess the question now is if this could be a factory rework of some kind. The finish has clearly got a lot of age on it, so I'm sure it's not a modern day restoration or a fake. I mean, if anybody had the knowledge and patience to finish everything to factory specs, why leave a stupid pin out? And looking at how crisp the gun is, why would it have needed a refinish in the first place?

11-30-2015, 08:47 PM	#6
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	If it's Swiss, then everything makes sense. In advertisement, you can just say 96% blue without addressing other stuffs. Many auction houses doing that too. But that may not work well in Luger domain. I sold a couple of Lugers in public sites, and found all queriers are forum members, and they know more than me

11-30-2015, 08:55 PM	#8
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Is the front sight fire blued? Are there fine machining tool marks on right side the frame ear? Please post more pictures.

11-30-2015, 08:57 PM	#9
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	So what price are you leaning toward? dju

11-30-2015, 09:19 PM	#11
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	I don't think someone intentionally aged it. Assume it's a little bit worn, and owner had it reblued by a gunsmith in 1930s (just for example),,,, many people doing that on their guns in tool stage (even today). Since it's a tool, they did not care much on "correct" finish. Personally, I reworked a few SKS for fun (stock only, not metal. Original SKS stock does not look pretty in my eyes) . Currently, no one cares,,,, say, 80 years later, SKS collectors will hold my gun wondering why this one looks so special.

11-30-2015, 09:33 PM	#14
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	The lanyard loop is worn. That's very unusual on civilian guns. This one should have served in certain military or paramilitary personal's hand in the past...

11-30-2015, 10:21 PM	#15
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,677 Thanks: 1,439 Thanked 4,347 Times in 2,038 Posts	Ollie, your pictures are good, I think it also a "good" re-finish. The areas that should be in the white, are not really completely white, but were covered fairly well and then the bluing polished back where it should not be, but the white areas are just not clean, in side the ears and bottom of the rails especially. Add that to the blued pin, the blued over area that should be polished, and the wrong color on the ejector, and the evidence adds up to re-finish. Some of the areas that should show crisp polish lines are "soft", at least that is the way I describe it, like the outside of the ears and the bevel on the right side top of the receiver in one group of pictures. I don't know what to say about the value, you will just have to look at the usual places and pick a number, just remember you can always go down in price!

12-01-2015, 08:21 PM	#18
Olle User Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 1,149 Thanks: 159 Thanked 663 Times in 318 Posts	Ok, thanks for the info! I informed the owner, and he decided to put a $1850 reserve on it. We'll see if it flies...