OK guys, tell me what I have....

[John Holbrook]

I bought a small gun collection today and the cutie was in it. I don't know squat about Lugers, so educate me... I am sure it has been reblued and there is no date on the top of the chamber, so has it been removed?

[tracyp]

Looks like a 1906 Navy. It has the safey (Gesichert) in the down position, so it's either first issue altered or second issue. It's from the 2nd Topedo Division.

[Ron Smith]

John, It appears to have been cold blued. However, does'nt show any signs of being heavily sanded or buffed, as the marks are still sharp and crisp.It would be a great candidate for a Thor redo. Nice pistol.

Ron

[Ron Wood]

The marking "Gesichert" with upper and lower case letters rather than "GESICHERT" with all upper case letters is a quick check that it is a first issue altered.

[John Sabato]

Hey John,

Please take a very close look at the front of the frame on this gun as shown in my negative image (which often makes flaws stand out better than natural color).



The last two digits have obviously been double-struck somewhat deeper, but the first two have not.

There certainly exists the possibility that this frame has been force-matched by someone...

In Circle "A", is there any evidence under a jewelers loupe that there was a suffix at one time?

...and is the flat or dent in circle "B" in the white or has it been blued over?

We need Tom Armstrong to examine the KM proofs on the left side of the frame, but they look okay to me...

The blank chamber is correct.

I might be paranoid, but I think that in the case of Navy's... it is almost warranted unless you know the personal ownership history of gun.

thanks for sharing.

[George Anderson]

Looks good to me.

[John Holbrook]

Here is another photo of th SN. I moved a straight edge over the radius under the sn and it is a true contour. So no metal has not been removed or disturbed. This old warhorse has cold blue on it, however it seems to be true... When was it built and who has info on the Second Torpedo Division? BTW, what is the name in German?

Nice old Luger. It is a 1906 you say? If you want more photos, just ask... The family that I got it from told me that ths old gent who had it, had it "forever", so I doubt that it has been "enhanced"!!!!!

[John Holbrook]

Here is a closeup of the left frame, and all numbers match except the mag...

[George Anderson]

John, in German, I believe, it would translate as "Zweite Torpedo Division". Many naval and military terms are of french origin, such as "division", and therefore remain constant as long as the alphabet does not change.

Your pistol appears to be a P04 version "1906 altered". As I understand it this indicates that the original configuration was safe when the lever was in the up position like commercial 1900s and 1906s. It was altered to be in safe when the lever was down. At the time of the modification the "Gesichert" was added. This marking is unique to this Navy as only the "G" is an upper case letter.

Others know far more about Navys than I, but I still think it is a solid example. I don't know where all the speculation about cold blue comes from.

[Navy]

The gun is right except for the cold blue.

The Second Torpedo Division was half of the Imperial Navy's Torpedo boat fleet. These were smaller than destroyers but larger than normal patrol craft.

Tom A.

[Pete Ebbink]

Hi John,

Is there a chance you could post a photo of the area under the thumb safety...when the lever is in its "up" position...?

Thanks,

Pete <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

[John Holbrook]

Pete, is this the area you want to see????

[tracyp]

That's an unusual place for the import mark. It does appear that it has been cold blued or reblued.

Tracy

[Ron Wood]

Actually, in spite of the apparent cold blue, this is a pretty nice piece. The removal of the lower safety marking has been executed with much more skill than most examples. I suspect that it was welded up and resurfaced. My Navy looks very similar except it has not been cold blued and retains faint traces of "peacock blue" from the heat of the welding process. I certainly would not be reluctant to have this Luger in my collection.

Congratulations on finding an excellent example. Since it has already suffered the indignity of re-bluing, I think it would be OK to have it professionally restored (a la Thor). What does the rest of the fraternity think?

[John Sabato]

I concur Ron, The finish is no longer "original" and therefore I think it should be as nice as it can be... well worth the time and money for Thor to work his magic on this one.

[Ron Smith]

Geo, John said "I am sure it has been reblued and there is no date on the top of the chamber, so has it been removed?"

His comment, plus the mottled apearance of the barrel, in the top photo, lead me to believe that it could have been touched up with cold blue. The additional photos show what appears to be original finish. With the exception of the scratches on the front of the frame.
Ron

[John Holbrook]

Here are two photos of the same area at different light angles. I am like John S. I assume that every gun has been refinished unless I can determine that it has not been. I have examined literally thousands of 1911's and I can spot a redo across the room.

Look at the "soft" edges and the "freckled" surface... This appears to have been an old selective refinish some of the internal parts are original finish as are the straw parts. It sure looks like it was lightly polished, then reblued. It sounds funny hearing the owner swear that his gun has been redone, it's usually the other way around!!!!

Also the Luger has the "hold open device", I thought this was not incorporated till later???

[tracyp]

The Navy had the hold open, the eary Armys did not. Does the hold open have the serial number on it. I would leave it as is and not refinish it. It's still a very nice piece.

Tracy

[Pete Ebbink]

Hi John,

I am not near my books, but from memory :

1. The chamber dating on the Navy lugers did not happen until the M1914 run of lugers. Your 1906 Navy with the blank chamber is proper.

2. I think the original lugers all had the hold-open feature but the German army, originally, spec'd it "out" with their design finalization of the P-08 in 1908. Was added back (in 1913 if I recall) and the earlier P-08's were to be arsenal retro-fit with the hold-open...some Bavarian unit lugers never got the retro-fit...

On these retro-fit P-08's, you can usually see the hole drilled through the right side frame where the hold-open is placed (and the "RC" stamping nearby). On your 1906 Navy with its original hold-open, you should not see the "hole" on the exterior of the frame's right side.

p.s. Thanks for the photo of the area under your thumb safety lever...I was just curious to see how they have reworked the area...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

[John Holbrook]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by tracyp:
<strong>The Navy had the hold open, the eary Armys did not. Does the hold open have the serial number on it. I would leave it as is and not refinish it. It's still a very nice piece.

Tracy</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">No, the hold open device does not have the "61" stamped on it, and I am not going to refinish it. I only redo guns that are basket cases. This one is much better than that, so I will leave as is.

See my new post of how I intend to display this charming old war horse!