A question on ammo for our Norwegian members

Vlim · 04-30-2010, 10:24 AM

Following a discussion about Norwegian 9x19 ammo on a local ammunition collectors board I have a question for our Norwegian members:

The P08 and P38 in Norwegian service must have been used with WW2 ammunition, as plenty must have been available initially.

Other suppliers would have taken over at a later date and I wonder if there is a good overview of 9x19 suppliers that delivered to the Norwegian forces during the second half of the 20th century?

Composite · 08-14-2010, 03:10 AM

Hello Vlim

I think this ammo has been used:

Steinar · 09-23-2010, 03:49 AM

Hello Gerben,
they mainly used ammunition made by Raufoss. They came in 16 round boxes and bulk packed in cardboard cases with carry strap, wonder where they got that idea

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I went up to my attic to snap a few pictures for you. As you can see, they had fun changing the labels over the years. What's on the picture is just a part of all the post war military 9mm I have.
Since it has not been an area of interest for me, I don't have the overview of all the various labels, head stamps, ballistic data and such for this ammunition. I could go ahead and do some research on this, but before I go ahead with it.. is it really of any interest? Don't get me wrong, I happy to help out, just need to know someone needs the info before I put effort into it

It's not what you are asking for, but since I had the camera in my hands, I added the two white boxes to the right. These are way to hot for the Luger, hence the warning label on one of them. Today Norway use "environmentally friendly" non-lead ammunition in our military. Great ammunition to make a Glock barrel smooth as a shotgun after 2000 rounds and to keep the soldier in bed for a few days with headache from the smoke..

I have no idea how much German ww2 9mm that where used.. they probably used quite a lot of it. But it is a fact that there where captured 9mm ammunition still available at the time Raufoss delivered to the military. So perhaps they were not happy with the wear from the German 9mm (and the corrosive downside of the British rounds, also available at the time)? Just a thought..

Click image for larger version

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All the best to all of y`all,
Steinar

Vlim · 09-26-2010, 02:45 PM

Hi Steinar,

Thanks for your elaborate answer (and interesting photographs). I think I wouldn't mind spending some time in your attic

It would be interesting to see, and have, an overview of Norwegian army box labels used. I have only one packaged box of Raufoss ammunition here, made in 1963.

I can imagine that the combination of lacquered steel cases and sintered iron or steel jacketed ammunition was not appreciated. Eastern Germany also kept using the 16-round box layout for many years after WW2. Why change a good design?

Again, thanks for showing!

@Composite: FFV would be Swedish made? •Förenede Fabriksverken, Karlsborg, Sweden

Steinar · 09-27-2010, 06:54 AM

It's a total chaos up there Gerben, but might be an interesting excavation site for a Luger collector

For some reason my wife and I decided to use boxes instad of racks.. a really ..really bad idea!

Ok, I will snap some more pictures of the various labels and the markings.
But I'm on my way out on a business trip + have some other projects I need to finish first, so will have to wait some weeks.
Until then.. is it possible to send "live" ammunition to Netherland? I could donate some boxes for your collection + send some additional rounds for you to cronograph.
(My cronograph refuses to cooperate with me after a "misunderstanding" I had with it a couple of years ago, involving a C96 with a jumpy rear sight..

)

Steinar · 10-01-2010, 03:27 AM

Raufoss started it's production of 9mm to the Norwegian military in 1948. Prior to that all sorts of available ammunition where used, German, Swedish, English and American. The production ended in late 60s/early 70s.. I'm not sure, will have to look into that.
Geco then took over the delivery of 9mm to be used in P08, P38, Browning etc. in "Parabellum" marked boxes.
Later, for MP5 and Glock, ammunition from FFV, IMI, GFL ++ have been used. For the first years they where marked "not to be used in P08, P38 and Browning HP".

I still have my detective hat on, so I will come back with more info later on (I hope)

Vlim · 10-01-2010, 12:38 PM

Steinar,

Thanks for the additional info. I know the GeCo boxes very well, I have an example over here which is just like the wartime commercial box, but with an NSN number added

Vlim · 10-09-2010, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Until then.. is it possible to send "live" ammunition to Netherland? I could donate some boxes for your collection + send some additional rounds for you to cronograph.

Steinar, one of the Dutch cartridge collectors has a second home in Norway and regularly imports Norwegian surplus ordnance into Holland. If you want, you can send some samples to him and he will bring them to Holland (he has the permits to do so).

DavidJayUden · 10-09-2010, 02:07 PM

And I'm sure that with open borders everyone is diligent about the correct permits...
dju

Vlim · 10-09-2010, 02:09 PM

Especially when you're carrying live ammo around

Composite · 10-30-2010, 01:49 PM

Norwegian ammunition from 1959 vs the german from 1943

.

Steinar · 10-31-2010, 08:20 AM

Gerben, as promised, I looked further into the subject.
What I ended up with, is finding three articles. In total 15 A4 pages of info and pictures. Everything you would like to know + then some!
It's published by "Scandinavian Ammunition Research association" in their "Bulletin" #79 2002, #81 2002 and #84 2003.

Out of respect for the author's, I don't feel it's right just to copy it directly into the forum. So my problem is what to do now? I have taken pictures of all the pages in the articles, shall I send them to you trough mail?
It's written in Norwegian, so perhaps that Dutch cartridge collector with second home in Norway can help you decipher it?
If you send me his address, I will send some boxes for him to forward to you

Steinar

Vlim · 10-31-2010, 11:13 AM

Steinar,

Thank you very much! Would be very interested in reading it, although I'd have to work on my Norwegian

Steinar · 11-01-2010, 04:36 AM

Ok, here is 15 pages compressed into ½ page 

To begun with, German, Swedish, English and American ammunition where used. Then in 1948 Raufoss started producing 9mm. In large quantity already from the beginning. Between 1948 and 1957 Brendan primers where used. No primers where produced at Raufoss, it seems as all came from Germany.
In 1963 the first Nato ammunition where produced, marked “9mm 1”.

The 1960’s produced 9mm where loaded quite “hot”, so in 1968 “9mm Special” where produced. These where intended for M08 Luger, P35 Browning and P38 Walther and should give aprox 325m/s. Unlike other rounds produced at the time, these had no seal around the primer.
The article does not give an answer to what ammunition was used for ww2 pistols prior to that, my guess is that they used the hot ammunition made to function in the MP-40 and Sten Guns. There where plenty of pistols at the time and probably less focus on safety..

This 1968 production was basically the end of 9mm production at Raufoss, after that Geco ammunition where purchased. Later, in 1982-1989 Swedish “Förende Fabriksverken” ammunition where purchased. But they found it too weak for the Sten Guns still used by some air defense units. (It didn’t punch the breech block all the way back, resulting in full auto fire)
After that.. FFV ammunition labeled “not to be used in P08 Luger, P38 walther and P37 Browning HP” where purchased. But it was just as hot as the 1960 produced ammunition from Raufoss. They kept the label warning about this until 1993 where Lugers, Walthers and Brownings where considered phased out. Yours truly can confirm that that’s pretty accurate.. some guards, medical units and such still used them 1993-1994.

Vlim · 11-01-2010, 01:49 PM

Steinar,

Great work! I really appreciate the effort you put into this. Thanks my friend!

04-30-2010, 10:24 AM	#1
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,031 Thanks: 1,018 Thanked 3,873 Times in 1,184 Posts	A question on ammo for our Norwegian members Following a discussion about Norwegian 9x19 ammo on a local ammunition collectors board I have a question for our Norwegian members: The P08 and P38 in Norwegian service must have been used with WW2 ammunition, as plenty must have been available initially. Other suppliers would have taken over at a later date and I wonder if there is a good overview of 9x19 suppliers that delivered to the Norwegian forces during the second half of the 20th century?

08-14-2010, 03:10 AM	#2
Composite User Join Date: May 2010 Location: Norway Posts: 15 Thanks: 6 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hello Vlim I think this ammo has been used: Attached Thumbnails Last edited by Composite; 08-16-2010 at 03:14 AM.

09-23-2010, 03:49 AM	#3
Steinar User Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 1,538 Thanks: 18 Thanked 36 Times in 21 Posts	Hello Gerben, they mainly used ammunition made by Raufoss. They came in 16 round boxes and bulk packed in cardboard cases with carry strap, wonder where they got that idea I went up to my attic to snap a few pictures for you. As you can see, they had fun changing the labels over the years. What's on the picture is just a part of all the post war military 9mm I have. Since it has not been an area of interest for me, I don't have the overview of all the various labels, head stamps, ballistic data and such for this ammunition. I could go ahead and do some research on this, but before I go ahead with it.. is it really of any interest? Don't get me wrong, I happy to help out, just need to know someone needs the info before I put effort into it It's not what you are asking for, but since I had the camera in my hands, I added the two white boxes to the right. These are way to hot for the Luger, hence the warning label on one of them. Today Norway use "environmentally friendly" non-lead ammunition in our military. Great ammunition to make a Glock barrel smooth as a shotgun after 2000 rounds and to keep the soldier in bed for a few days with headache from the smoke.. I have no idea how much German ww2 9mm that where used.. they probably used quite a lot of it. But it is a fact that there where captured 9mm ammunition still available at the time Raufoss delivered to the military. So perhaps they were not happy with the wear from the German 9mm (and the corrosive downside of the British rounds, also available at the time)? Just a thought.. All the best to all of y`all, Steinar __________________ Previously known as Morgan Kane

09-27-2010, 06:54 AM	#5
Steinar User Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 1,538 Thanks: 18 Thanked 36 Times in 21 Posts	It's a total chaos up there Gerben, but might be an interesting excavation site for a Luger collector For some reason my wife and I decided to use boxes instad of racks.. a really ..really bad idea! Ok, I will snap some more pictures of the various labels and the markings. But I'm on my way out on a business trip + have some other projects I need to finish first, so will have to wait some weeks. Until then.. is it possible to send "live" ammunition to Netherland? I could donate some boxes for your collection + send some additional rounds for you to cronograph. (My cronograph refuses to cooperate with me after a "misunderstanding" I had with it a couple of years ago, involving a C96 with a jumpy rear sight.. ) __________________ Previously known as Morgan Kane

10-01-2010, 03:27 AM	#6
Steinar User Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 1,538 Thanks: 18 Thanked 36 Times in 21 Posts	Raufoss started it's production of 9mm to the Norwegian military in 1948. Prior to that all sorts of available ammunition where used, German, Swedish, English and American. The production ended in late 60s/early 70s.. I'm not sure, will have to look into that. Geco then took over the delivery of 9mm to be used in P08, P38, Browning etc. in "Parabellum" marked boxes. Later, for MP5 and Glock, ammunition from FFV, IMI, GFL ++ have been used. For the first years they where marked "not to be used in P08, P38 and Browning HP". I still have my detective hat on, so I will come back with more info later on (I hope) __________________ Previously known as Morgan Kane

09-26-2010, 02:45 PM	#4
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,031 Thanks: 1,018 Thanked 3,873 Times in 1,184 Posts	Hi Steinar, Thanks for your elaborate answer (and interesting photographs). I think I wouldn't mind spending some time in your attic It would be interesting to see, and have, an overview of Norwegian army box labels used. I have only one packaged box of Raufoss ammunition here, made in 1963. I can imagine that the combination of lacquered steel cases and sintered iron or steel jacketed ammunition was not appreciated. Eastern Germany also kept using the 16-round box layout for many years after WW2. Why change a good design? Again, thanks for showing! @Composite: FFV would be Swedish made? •Förenede Fabriksverken, Karlsborg, Sweden

10-01-2010, 12:38 PM	#7
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,031 Thanks: 1,018 Thanked 3,873 Times in 1,184 Posts	Steinar, Thanks for the additional info. I know the GeCo boxes very well, I have an example over here which is just like the wartime commercial box, but with an NSN number added

10-09-2010, 02:07 PM	#9
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	And I'm sure that with open borders everyone is diligent about the correct permits... dju

10-09-2010, 02:09 PM	#10
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,031 Thanks: 1,018 Thanked 3,873 Times in 1,184 Posts	Especially when you're carrying live ammo around

10-30-2010, 01:49 PM	#11
Composite User Join Date: May 2010 Location: Norway Posts: 15 Thanks: 6 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Norwegian ammunition from 1959 vs the german from 1943 . Attached Thumbnails

10-31-2010, 08:20 AM	#12
Steinar User Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 1,538 Thanks: 18 Thanked 36 Times in 21 Posts	Gerben, as promised, I looked further into the subject. What I ended up with, is finding three articles. In total 15 A4 pages of info and pictures. Everything you would like to know + then some! It's published by "Scandinavian Ammunition Research association" in their "Bulletin" #79 2002, #81 2002 and #84 2003. Out of respect for the author's, I don't feel it's right just to copy it directly into the forum. So my problem is what to do now? I have taken pictures of all the pages in the articles, shall I send them to you trough mail? It's written in Norwegian, so perhaps that Dutch cartridge collector with second home in Norway can help you decipher it? If you send me his address, I will send some boxes for him to forward to you Steinar __________________ Previously known as Morgan Kane

10-31-2010, 11:13 AM	#13
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,031 Thanks: 1,018 Thanked 3,873 Times in 1,184 Posts	Steinar, Thank you very much! Would be very interested in reading it, although I'd have to work on my Norwegian

11-01-2010, 04:36 AM	#14
Steinar User Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 1,538 Thanks: 18 Thanked 36 Times in 21 Posts	Ok, here is 15 pages compressed into ½ page  To begun with, German, Swedish, English and American ammunition where used. Then in 1948 Raufoss started producing 9mm. In large quantity already from the beginning. Between 1948 and 1957 Brendan primers where used. No primers where produced at Raufoss, it seems as all came from Germany. In 1963 the first Nato ammunition where produced, marked “9mm 1”. The 1960’s produced 9mm where loaded quite “hot”, so in 1968 “9mm Special” where produced. These where intended for M08 Luger, P35 Browning and P38 Walther and should give aprox 325m/s. Unlike other rounds produced at the time, these had no seal around the primer. The article does not give an answer to what ammunition was used for ww2 pistols prior to that, my guess is that they used the hot ammunition made to function in the MP-40 and Sten Guns. There where plenty of pistols at the time and probably less focus on safety.. This 1968 production was basically the end of 9mm production at Raufoss, after that Geco ammunition where purchased. Later, in 1982-1989 Swedish “Förende Fabriksverken” ammunition where purchased. But they found it too weak for the Sten Guns still used by some air defense units. (It didn’t punch the breech block all the way back, resulting in full auto fire) After that.. FFV ammunition labeled “not to be used in P08 Luger, P38 walther and P37 Browning HP” where purchased. But it was just as hot as the 1960 produced ammunition from Raufoss. They kept the label warning about this until 1993 where Lugers, Walthers and Brownings where considered phased out. Yours truly can confirm that that’s pretty accurate.. some guards, medical units and such still used them 1993-1994. __________________ Previously known as Morgan Kane

11-01-2010, 01:49 PM	#15
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,031 Thanks: 1,018 Thanked 3,873 Times in 1,184 Posts	Steinar, Great work! I really appreciate the effort you put into this. Thanks my friend!