What Makes A US Test Eagle...?

[Pete Ebbink]

What gun features makes a US Test Eagle a US Test Eagle ? Here is what I can figure out...have I missed anything ?

1. Typical 1900 Old Model features.
2. American Eagle stamp on chamber.
3. Type 2 thumb safety lever.
4. Lack of "Germany" stamping(s).
5. Lack of BUG proofs.
6. Commercial style serial numbering.
7. The last 2 digits of the serial number are stamped on the right side of the strawed take-down lever spindle.
8. Traditionally in the 6100 to 7100 serial number range (but many out-of-range high and low numbers are reported...since the printing of M. Reese's book on the US Test trials).

Would appreciate knowing if I have missed other features...

p.s. The 100 - US Test Presentation guns C. Kenyon mentions in his 2nd. book, "Luger - The Multinational Pistol" on pages 52-53, conform to all the above features except :

- They are in the 7200 serial range.
- The last 2 digits of the serial number are stamped on the left side of the take-down lever.

Questions : Has this group of US Test Presentation guns been "accepted" ? Is there documentation that a later group of these 100 guns was delivered to the US government folks ? How did C. Kenyon come to this conclusion about these 100 later Test pieces ?

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

[Edward Tinker]

Don't know Pete, but this particular "run" of guns interests me highly. I have held several of the "correct" and "accepted" numbered Test Pieces and like them. Since there were 1,000 made, there is a much higher chance of getting one.

I don't have Kenyon's Multi-National Luger, so that was news to me?

Hopefully you will get feedback from Ron or others?

Ed

[Pete Ebbink]

Ed,

This 2nd. book by C. Kenyon is more of a "coffee table" book. Lots of wonderful guns photographed really well, but not a lot of technical text to go along. The owners of the guns showcased are not mentioned or given photo-credit...which I enjoy knowing from other books. It is always nice to find/own a luger one day that might have been in a world-class collector's collection in the past...e.g. guns from John Morgan's collections that have now found new homes...

The forward mentions that this book is a precursor to a larger work that Mr. Kenyon has in the works. When I met him at Tulsa last year and asked him when his next book will come out, he said probably not until after he retires...

Simpson's has this book fro sale. It is item # 13 on this page link :

http://www.simpsonltd.com/books_for_sale.htm

I have also heard that this new Kenyon book will have a chapter covering guns that can be described as being in the "that gun cannot possibly exist" category...should be an interesting book when it comes out.

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

[Lugerdoc]

Pete, I agree with your above desription of the "US Test" lugers. You also might want to add to your list the few out of range M1900AEs that Bannerman purchased from the Army. I think that Charlie Ks thinking on the higher out of range lugers, is that the typical rejection rate at the time of production was about 10%,so possibly a 100 or so would have come from a higher serial number range. TH

[Pete Ebbink]

Hello Tom,

When I first started reading up on the US test Eagles, I assumed the 1,000 pistols was in a consecutive range...M. Reese does not state this explicitedly, but I assumed this from his "reported list" of ~ 6100 to 7100...(but only 95 or so guns were in Reese's list in 1975...)

Since LF member, Ron Wood, has now tracked many low & high out-of-range Test pieces, it is obvious that the 1,000 guns were just pulled out of the commercial production, maybe somewhat at random.

To confirm this, I have the follow-up question :

Have 1900 Commercials (i.e. Germany stamped and with BUG proofs) been reported that displayed serial numbers in the 6100 to 7100 range ?

If yes, this would help support the fact that the Test Eagles were not consecutively made.

If no, maybe the thinking that the 1,000 Test Eagles were consecutive (at least the first 800-900 gun batch) should be re-evaluated...but then what about all of those reported out-of-range guns...(???)...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

[Edward Tinker]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">When I first started reading up on the US test Eagles, I assumed the 1,000 pistols was in a consecutive range...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">This is the " accepted " range, as the only place where you can find serial numbers are of two places that I know of.
1. The four guns by serial number by the lieutenant who was issued them and when he wrote his report mentioned the four serial numbers
2. And the guns turned over to Bannerman for sale.

People seem to get excited when you question these "facts", as obviously only the accepted numbers are the good numbers. And I do believe that you have to start somewhere if you want to have a scientific basis to your fact finding.

Assumptions I have made, are;

1. DWM would have had a master list of guns sent to test sites.
2. There are always lists made of items put onto a ship for transport. There is a very good chance that whatever ship transported the guns had (has) a list of how many and by serial number.
3. Military units have always kept track of weapons by serial number, so there should have been records made of guns received through supply channels and again when those weapons were leaving the supply channels.
4. Springfield Armory should have had records of these transactions on their end.
5. All of the above is a long time ago, and after a set period of time, records would be purged at the local level and destroyed after 7-10 years at the higher levels.

Ed

[Ron Wood]

As Pete has pointed out and as many of you know, I have been collecting the serial numbers of observed or reported US Test Trial Lugers for many years now. The criteria for including a Luger in the list are that it must have the features that Pete listed in his first post above, except that around serial number 7136 the last two digits of the serial number starts to appear on the left side of the takedown lever on the visible flat portion (as opposed to "hidden" in the commercial style).

I have posted the current list in the Member Gallery for your information and consideration. As new serial numbers are discovered, perhaps from some of our members, I will update the list periodically. There is no claim that this list "validates" any "above range" or "below range" Luger as being a Test Trial example.

From what I have observed, I have some doubt that the serial numbers of the Test Lugers were totally consecutive, but I have not a shred of evidence to support this other than the known above range examples in the Bannerman purchase. The numbers are listed for historical purposes and are an attempt to aid students of the Luger to evaluate what is known and what is not known about the Test Trial Lugers, hopefully to lead to further discoveries and perhaps someday uncover the true range of this most interesting bit of US history.

[Pete Ebbink]

Hello Ron,

Thanks for the great work over the years of tracking these nubmers and putting such an easy-to-read list together.

Taking Reese's original list of ~ 95 Test Eagles and building it to nearly 275 guns is quite the dedicated work effort over the years !

Can you direct me to the Bannermann numbered guns. Were these numbers published, somewhere...?

I would like to mark up my copy of your List with these Bannermann guns...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

[Edward Tinker]

Pete, in several books, it just states this:

{The Luger Story, Walter}

[Les]

I have a test eagle pic that I would like to share but do not know how on this format..maybe in the photo section?

[John Sabato]

Les,

There is a tutorial for posting photos in the Site Help and Feedback Forum... if you find it too confusing, you can send me the photo via email and I will be glad to post it for you.

Check your private messages by visiting your profile.

[Pete Ebbink]

Hello Ron,

Do you also record "condition" remarks when you enter a US Test into your database ?...assuming you have received this info. from the owner who has asked to have their piece entered into the database ?

Could folks contact you if they are planning to buy a certain US Test, to see if it might have been previously recorded ?

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

[Ron Wood]

Pete,
I have a few notes on condition, but mostly on pieces I have observed myself. While some individuals have stated the condition of their Test Luger examples, I find that "condition" is so subjective that I am reluctant to publish any reported condition, including my own. For example, I had one gentleman say that he had a "mint" Luger (not a test piece). When I finally got to see it, it would barely qualify as 90%. When I mentioned that to him, he indignantly replied that it "certainly was mint considering how old it was".

I would be glad to respond to anyone planning to purchase a US Test piece, and have done so on several occasions. I included all serial numbers that I had recorded to that time in the list I posted in the Member Gallery. Since I posted that list, I have added serial number 6795. The breakout of serial numbers is now 7 "below range", 238 within the range of 6100 to 7100, and 31 "above range" examples.

[John Sabato]

Ron,

Anytime you have a change in your list please delete your original photo in your album and replace it with the current list... this can only be done by yourself...(or an Admin and I am still kinda busy fending off virus attacks for clients)

thanks...and have a great weekend.

[Sniper]

I just purchased a 1900 American Eagle Luger. The serial number is 7555. There is the number 55 stamped on the left side of the strawed take down lever. Type 2 thumb safety.
I purchased the piece on consignment last week at a pawn/loan store in Nevada. It came with the original US stamped russet leather holster and one unmarked wood bottomed clip in a brown russet leather clip pouch. I removed the grips and saw "55" on each of these as well as the word "Dawson" in ink longhand written on inside. Every other piece I can see on the inside/outside has a "55" on it as well. No proof marks anywhere that I can see. I paid $1500. Just really liked the gun. It was my birthday and my wife said "get it". Just wanted to know how I made out. Any email would be apprecieated. Thanks, Tom
thek98sniper@aol.com

[Pete Ebbink]

Hello Tom,

The knowledgable folks here can give you a close valuation if you can estimate the % of bluing left on your gun and the % of strawing left on certain small parts.

Condition, condition, condition; is everything when it comes to collection pieces.

Also, is yours "Germany" stamped anywhere and are there any "importer's" marks...?

Photos would help as well, if you can post some...

p.s. (Added on 8-23-03...) Since your AE luger has the two last serial numbers on the "left" side of the take-down lever, it would preclude it from being a "US Test Eagle", as theirs are stamped on the rounded, right side of the take-down lever spindle...
Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

[Ron Wood]

Tom,
We also need to see pictures of the holster. If original and in good shape, you may have gotten a better bargan than you think.

[MauserLugers]

Hi Pete,
You wrote: p.s. (Added on 8-23-03...) Since your AE luger has the two last serial numbers on the "left" side of the take-down lever, it would preclude it from being a "US Test Eagle", as theirs are stamped on the rounded, right side of the take-down lever spindle...
Regards

Isn't this a characteristic of the supposedly last 100 Test Lugers that are found above the 7100 serial range? 7555 would be in the correct range with the 55 on the left flat of the take down lever. I have 7735 with these characteristics and it is thought that THEY are test pieces by most, but there is no way to prove it. The 6100 to 7100 serial range has been drilled into us for a long time with no actual facts to exclude anything above them. The Lugers bought by Bannerman include 7147 which is out of the 6100-7100 recongized range, so apparently the 6100 to 7100 could very well have some holes in it. Kenyon told me that he felt if it wasn't marked Germany, had no Bug proofs, and had the take down lever marked either on the right or left flat, then he felt they were test pieces. Not all agree with this. According to what I've been told, only the test pieces in the serial range from approximately 6000-8000 are not marked Germany. That is the most important factor.

So, if you want an accepted test piece find one in the 6100-7100 range. If you find one outside of the range that isn't marked Germany, has the AE, no bug proofs, and has the two digits on the left flat of the take down lever, you could possibly have a test piece, but not everyone will conceed to this. I have one of each. -- Bill

[Pete Ebbink]

Hello Bill,

Yes I agree with what you have written.

I was waiting for Tom, the original poster, to let us know if the gun was "Germany" marked or not. I think he already did state it has no proofs (i.e. B.U.G. stampings).

Doesn't Kenyon call those later 100 (or 200 as M. Reese indicated...) pistols as "US Test Presentation" lugers ? Is yours as nice condition as the one shown in Kenyon's 2nd. book ? If yes, it must be a beauty !

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

[Ron Wood]

Bill,
Just to echo your thoughts, as I indicated in my first post above, the serial number on the left flat of the takedown starts to appear around serial number 7136. So if you accept "above the range" Lugers as possible test pieces if they have all the other characteristics, you can't eliminate some based on the left side serial number.