1917 vs. 1918

[Fazer]

I believe there were many more Atillery lugers made in 1917 as compaired to 1918. If this is so, is there a price differance. In other words, two pistols in the same condition, one marked 1917, the other 1918, is there a premium for the 1918, or just nicer to have. Thanks......Chip

[Edward Tinker]

Chip, this must mean that you don't have Jan Still's newest book!


90,000 1917's vs 25,000 1918's

The answer also lies in what country you are in. Didn't a lot of WW1 souveners make it back to Australia?


Ed

[Fazer]

Thanks for that.
At the momet I am on a lay barge enroute from Singapore to Viet Nam, so I have no books. I have a 1917, but know of a 1918 for sale and am trying to figure out if I should get it. I know wwhat the 1917 is worth, just trying to figure out if I should be willing to go higher on the 1918... Chip

[spartacus38]

In 95% or better condition my estimate in value difference

would be approx. 10% more for the 1918.

I hope this helps.

Bob

[George Anderson]

I would estimate that given two pistols, an LP08 1917 and an LP08 1918 in equal condition, the 1918 would command a price at least 25% higher than the 1917.

[abukafura]

I agree with George. How many 1918s do you see for sale, especially nice ones. I think 25% is reasonable.

[raygun]

UH OH , I wonder if Chip / Frazer and I are looking at the same gun ?!

see my other relevant thread.

[Big Norm]

Frazer,
Collecting Lugers is a lot like car collecting. People want the first one made and the last one madeof any given model. Then again, the 1917 was a transition where the first ones had adjustable screws on the front and rear sights and the last ones didn't. So the last 1917 probably resembled the 1918. But its still the date on the chamber that matters.

But the production tally doesn't tell the whole story. More 1918's as a percent of production probably were captured by the allies or turned in by the Germans at the end of the war and subsequently destroyed then any other production year. This increases the collector value of a nice 1918. The earlier years had a better chance of becoming a war trophy by an ally foot solder than a 1918. At the end of the war, guys were just happy to be still alive and wanted to go home just at like the end of any other war and Lugers were quite common in those days. Certainly not the valuable collectors pieces that they are today.

But be careful there, Raygun and Frazer. Australia doesn't care if these pistols are collectible or not. A destroyed Luger is still a worthless Luger.
Big Norm

[raygun]

Originally posted by Big Norm
Frazer,
Collecting Lugers is a lot like car collecting. People want the first one made and the last one madeof any given model. Then again, the 1917 was a transition where the first ones had adjustable screws on the front and rear sights and the last ones didn't. So the last 1917 probably resembled the 1918. But its still the date on the chamber that matters.

But the production tally doesn't tell the whole story. More 1918's as a percent of production probably were captured by the allies or turned in by the Germans at the end of the war and subsequently destroyed then any other production year. This increases the collector value of a nice 1918. The earlier years had a better chance of becoming a war trophy by an ally foot solder than a 1918. At the end of the war, guys were just happy to be still alive and wanted to go home just at like the end of any other war and Lugers were quite common in those days. Certainly not the valuable collectors pieces that they are today.

But be careful there, Raygun and Frazer. Australia doesn't care if these pistols are collectible or not. A destroyed Luger is still a worthless Luger.
Big Norm

Interesting perspective on survival of certain models Norm . I've always thought the quality of product in the last year of the war may have suffered , have you noticed that at all ?

Your right our government doesn't care about collectable guns , but many of us do . It is a nightmare of paperwork to keep them live on a collectors
license - but we perservere .

[raygun]

Originally posted by Edward Tinker

The answer also lies in what country you are in. Didn't a lot of WW1 souveners make it back to Australia?
Ed

Yes they did , we fought at Gallipoli and the western front between 1915 and 1918 . Population at the time was 5 million . 300,000 enlisted . 59,000 dead and 159,000 wounded . 72% casualties . Virtually every family in the country lost a member . It was by far our worst war .

So many Maxims came back that when WW2 started and there was a shortage of machineguns they started a refurbishment programme to re-chamber them to .303 for service . The programme was curtailed when we started making Vickers and Brens at Lithgow.

[Big Norm]

Ed,
I agree with Raygun. The landing at Gallipoli was a total disaster for the poor Aussi soldiers that were sent there. The British navy landed everyone in the wrong locations. The Turks held the high ground and were picking everyone off on the beaches. To compound the problem there was a lack of fresh water. The then British minister of the navy, Winston Churchhill, was forced to resign. It was a disaster that haunted Churchhill all the way thru WW2 and influenced his thinking even then. I don't think that there were many trophies taken there because the Aussies were lucky to get out at all. The casualties were horrible.

In my humble opinion, elsewear, the Aussies and the Canadians showed GREAT valor during that war when they were given almost impossible tasks and suffered horrendous loses. I have read the book 'The Guns of August' by Barbara Tuchman and was stunned by the senseless disregard for life on the battlefield by the allies military leadership. More good books are 'World War 1' by S.L.A Marshall and 'A Short History of WW1' by James L. Stokesbury. If you are really into a true tear jerker, then read '11th Day, 11th Hour, 11th Month' by Joseph Persico. There is no need, on my part, to tell you what that sad book is about. I cried a lot while listening to it, especially the part about the last American soldier to die. Something that no soldier, in any war, in any army wants to be. Very sad.

I have these books on audio tape and listen to them while deer hunting. While I learn a lot, you now know why I rarely actually get a deer. But the history of that time period is truly interesting. I do have an artillery stock that has the name of an Aussie hero scratched into it. This name is on a monument in Australia and I always wanted to ask an Australian about it. Someday, I will post a thread here for comments.
Big Norm

[raygun]

Thanks for your kind comments Norm . I was feeling a bit emotional when I made that last post as our national day of rememberance [ANZAC Day]is coming up on April 25th , the day we went ashore at Gallipoli.

This year will be extra special for me as I have been asked to march with my late Uncles Squadron Association , the 466 Halifax bomber squadron.

This will be a great honour and privilage. My Uncle was lost when bailing out of a stricken Halifax over the north sea in March 1945 . Age 21 , just 6 weeks before the war ended .He was my fathers younger brother , and it had a profound and lasting effect on my family.

Hardly anyone in the squadron association is under 85 , so they welcome the interest and support of family members.

Please do post up that fellows name and I will see what I can find out about it .

kind regards .

[Big Norm]

Raygun,
everybody on this forum talks about WW1 Lugers and there condition. We look at pictures in the books. But to actually read what went on during the times that these weapons were standard issue and prized trophies of war by humans who were there, well, it adds a little depth and considerably more interest to the collection of these weapons themselves. When I do hunt, there are long periods to total boredom. I joke about my lack of success. But I found that during those cold and wet winter days in Michigan where I am just sitting there with my ears and feet freezing, a good book about WW1 on tape or CD keeps me awake and I don't notice the cold nearly as much. It also afford me the opportunity to try to understand the personalities on those leaders who ordered those men to their deaths and injuries. Its hard to imagine how the foot soldiers could jump out of their trenches and charge blazing machine guns and die in a few minutes by the tens of thousands. How could men stand waist deep in trenches with rats and human waist all over the place.

Then before every major attack these was heavy artillery bombardment. Well those large amounts of artillery shells were unloaded by the train load and any spy could see it being unloaded. So the troups on both sides knew what was going to happen soon. Many times the enemy were able to adjust to the coming artillery barrage and so the carnage created by that barrage slowed the attackers and made them easier targets for the enemy. Many times tens of thousands of men would die for only a few hundred yards of mud. One of the authors of the above mentioned books said that the Germans were particularly good at counter attacking and their bunkers were very sophisticated.

My above mentioned book '11th Month, 11th Day 11th Hour' was particularly sad for me and I cried for a whole day while I hunted. Orders to attack were issued by the allies before the peace treaty was signed. But nobody cancelled the orders on that final day. Field commanders did not know what to do and there was great confusion. Some were told that to not follow orders would result in a court marshal. Everybody on down the lines knew what was going on. Some field commanders disobeyed orders and some didn't. If memory serves me right, some 3,000 allied men perished in the last hours of that day trying to capture land that they would have for free the next day. The book talks about individuals and what happens to them on that day, so it became sort of personalized.

But, to the point of this forum, the tally of manufactured WW1 Lugers doesn't mean much when you try to understand what they have been through. I am amazed at any holsters came through the war at all. I have one 1914 DWM artillery that has unit marks. I have read what that particular unit went through and I can not help but wonder how that particular weapon ever made it through the entire war.
Big Norm

[Big Norm]

Raygun,
after some digging through my stacks of stuff, I finally found that stock with that heros name on it.

D. A. Fowler and then there is also Gouburn scratched under the name.
The number on the stock iron is pretty banged up but I think that I read 9283a

I bought this stock and the attaching leather, cup and straps over Ebay from an Australian guy so I believe that this has a pretty good chance of being a true Aussie war trophy. The bidding on Ebay was pretty brisk. I'll have to go over my notes to see if the holster also came with it. That would give us an approximate date. But I do not think it did. I think that I remember working the seller over pretty hard in an effort to get the holster or any other rig from Australia. We had some pretty nice conversations over the computer, but nothing ever came of it.

Big Norm

[var99]

Big Norm

I have read that book and to your point, the statistic that still resonates with me is that despite the announced armistice , there were more total casualties on that last day of WWI than on the first day of the Normandy invasion (pg 378), what a terrible tragedy!!

Vince

[Big Norm]

Vince,
luckily, not all field commanders followed orders or the casualties would have been higher. I have a whole bunch of other books too. Some dealing with the Roosevelt, Churchhill and Stalin relationships during WW2. They are kinda interesting too. I was surprised when I talked to a few Russsians and they still think that the Czar was still the Czar when he and his family were butchered. He wasn't. And although the executioner was a professional photographer, he didn't take one picture of the event. Ah-h-h sometimes history can be so interesting.

Oh... I almost forgot. At the end of WW2, General Eisenhower had a large number of German POW's. So He changed their designation from POW's to Disarmed Fighting Force. This enabled him to ignore the Geneva Convention. So although food and medical supplies were stacked up just outside their fences and in their view, they were not allowed to have them. As a result, some 50,000 German POW's died of starvation and war injuries. Some just committed suicide by jumping into large slit tenches full of 'you know what'. It reminds me of Andersonville during the American civil war.
Big Norm

[raygun]

Originally posted by Big Norm
Raygun,
after some digging through my stacks of stuff, I finally found that stock with that heros name on it.

D. A. Fowler and then there is also Gouburn scratched under the name.
The number on the stock iron is pretty banged up but I think that I read 9283a

I bought this stock and the attaching leather, cup and straps over Ebay from an Australian guy so I believe that this has a pretty good chance of being a true Aussie war trophy. The bidding on Ebay was pretty brisk. I'll have to go over my notes to see if the holster also came with it. That would give us an approximate date. But I do not think it did. I think that I remember working the seller over pretty hard in an effort to get the holster or any other rig from Australia. We had some pretty nice conversations over the computer, but nothing ever came of it.

Big Norm

Here you go Norm .

Captain Daniel Arthur Fowler 2 div Artillery , returned to Australia 22-7-19

Awarded the Military Cross for Gallantry during active opperations against the enemy .

http://www.awm.gov.au/honours/honour...n.asp?p=MC2251

Your right , you have a trophy from a genuine Australian war hero .

Please look after it .

There are only two higher awards , the top award being the Victoria Cross . You just about have to die fighting to win that , usually awarded posthumously .

Goulburn is a medium size city in new South Wales .

[Big Norm]

Raygun,
Thank you for the information. Its good to know that he returned to Australia alive. The world doesn't have enough men of his caliber. Its too bad that the holster and the Luger were separated from the stock. It seems that the rig should have been placed in an Australian museum alone with a picture and some other memorabilia to remind others of this brave soul, who was a brave man among brave men.

Not long ago, I did some cabinet work for a British lady. I had the pleasure of briefly meeting this gentleman before he died of a stroke. While at her home, I noticed some medals in a picture frame. It seems that these were awards given by the French and the British governments to this ladies husband and his father for bravery in their respective wars. She didn't know what they did to be awarded such medals. (A sad commentary regarding this woman). But she did know that there are two pictures of her husband in a museum in Britain. One of them is of her husband shaking hands with Winston Churchill and another of him sitting on a tank that he commanded in North Africa watching some German tanks burning off in a distance. There isn't a name on these pictures identifying him, but he did point them out to his wife on one of their visits to the UK.

Since they had no children or close in-laws, she planned to give the medals to an auction house to be sold off. I had the same hollow feelings then in my stomach that I now have for my artillery stock. Soon, the memories and achievements of these remarkable men will vanish. What is it that President Bush said? "The unmarked graves of unknown men in forgotten wars...".

Sometimes not so big, Norm

[John Sabato]

Hey Norm, For what it is worth, I think that the UK government may keep some pretty good records on awards they have given especially to foreign soldiers, (Perhaps TAC can let us know if this is true)... If so, with his name, you might be able to come up with the citations for the awards given the guy who shook hands with Winston Churchill... Those medals would look pretty good next to the photos in that museum...

[whcoyote]

Guys:
This thread has been very enlightening and emotional for me to read. It is one of the most genuine and dignified exchanges I have seen on a forum. I have nothing to contribute but to agree with all that has been said. It is comforting to know that there are still those who care about the sacrifices and hardships of unknown men who went before us to do their part so that we may enjoy our way of life.
Bob G.