Help with a Commercial Luger

reiver · 06-17-2023, 11:47 PM

I've been told this is an original 1920 9mm DWM but I find the mis matched finish and the sights to be unlike anything I've seen from that genre.
The rear sight has roll pins and a 'modern' screw base...the front site looks very un German and very US.
I don't see any Germany import stamp....I am no expert but can't find anything similar in my reference books.
The barrel profile looks unusual too...so?

What do you think?

Doubs · 06-18-2023, 10:41 AM

IMO someone has built a custom Luger intended for target shooting. The Luger can be an amazingly accurate pistol. I seriously doubt that DWM ever built anything like that.

Better pictures showing details, including the serial numbers, would help to confirm or disprove my opinion.

reiver · 06-18-2023, 11:32 AM

He only shows a few pictures and never the serial number nor the top of the sight/pistol. If you look closely, you can see roll pins in the rear sight and a modern screw base on the left. The front sight blade is also secured with a roll pin....Roll pins were 'invented/patented' in 1948.

I agree this was an after the fact barrel event.

The serial number is 91472

He is now saying it was a Stoeger build in the proper period.

Doubs · 06-18-2023, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reiver

He is now saying it was a Stoeger build in the proper period.

Highly unlikely IMO. While Stoeger offered barreled receivers in different barrel lengths, that is almost certainly a custom fit barrel by a gunsmith. I could be wrong but I doubt that Stoeger ever offered custom gunsmithing of that sort.

As is often said, buy the gun; not the story. If it appeals to you and the price is right, buy it but also ask for a money back guarantee if it doesn't function correctly.

reiver · 06-18-2023, 01:38 PM

I am not purchasing based upon numerous responses fro those with more experience than I.

From another Luger site...

"Back in the late 1960, early 1970s there was a place in Minnesota advertising that they would convert conventional 4" barreled Lugers to Luger Carbines. I don't recall prices but if you sent them a 4" barreled Luger they sent you it back with a long barrel. This looks like one of the conversions they offered. I kept one of their catalogs" "

Thanks for your input.

reiver · 06-18-2023, 08:03 PM

I made an offer based upon a shooter/modified Luger as he says it cycles perfectly.... might be fun if he will seriously lower his 'buy now' price.

He accepted my offer that was a shooter price.... he's come to the conclusion it is simply an aftermarket job. Money back if it does not cycle properly.

On that cycling issue with the long barrels...this is 9mm btw. Was the ammo too weak or too hot that caused issues? That is a lot of 'mass' to move in the recoil mode. OTOH, the round is in the tube longer too...so could be either as a guess.

Mac Cat · 06-18-2023, 11:19 PM

A Carbine luger has a forestock.
This gun has none, which I suspect would make it more difficult to aim.
I wonder if it was intended to work with a should stock, too.
It will certainly be an interesting gun to shoot.

reiver · 06-19-2023, 12:38 AM

I have a carbine shoulder stock and can't imagine shooting that piece without it.

Arty Lugers are fine either way with an 8 in. barrel but the stock with a two hand grip is a great platform...I suspect that same hold will be fine with the cannon barrel.

reiver · 06-24-2023, 03:01 PM

I have the pistol and the overall condition is very good...tight. I cleaned and inspected it

Doubs · 06-24-2023, 05:28 PM

The stats for those +P Gold Dot loads show it to be pretty hot. The original load for the P.08 Luger was a 123 grain bullet at approximately 1090 fps. It's also a rather expensive cartridge to be shooting often.

The Luger operates best with a specific impulse provided by the cartridge. The best powders will be fast to medium burning in a standard Luger. However, such powders would likely require pressures beyond reasonable to operate what you have. If you reload, I'd try a powder such as Autocomp or Unique that burns slower and longer down the barrel and has a longer "peak" in it's graph pattern than a faster powder. Start low and work up keeping a very close watch for signs of pressure.

reiver · 06-24-2023, 05:36 PM

The barrel is actually 14.5 in. measured from the chamber...the owner measured 'outside'.

reiver · 06-24-2023, 07:33 PM

Xxx

wlyon · 06-24-2023, 09:27 PM

Actually one should never shoot +P ammo in old firearms. They were not designed for this load. Unless the operators manual says +P is ok avoid it. Bill

gunbugs · 06-24-2023, 10:49 PM

T/C Thompson Center rear sight. Pretty obvious. I've got a couple laying around the shop.

gunbugs · 06-24-2023, 10:53 PM

And I would note that if the barrel length is 14 1/2", and you put a stock on it, you now have a "short barreled rifle" requiring registration with the Feds. Carbine stocks are for real carbines. Navy stocks are for real navy's, and Artillery stocks are for LP08's. Any other combination runs afoul of the law. 200 bucks is cheap to keep yourself out of court.

reiver · 06-24-2023, 11:42 PM

The barrel/chamber are 'modern' as this is not an original LP08..

reiver · 06-25-2023, 12:12 AM

I've decided to return the pistol due to the ATF issue...I was unaware the LP08 Arty /carbine exemption did not cover other similar pistols so you gave good advice and made me do some investigating.

IOW, you can't put a Navy stock on an Arty LP08 as that was not the issue item. I was unaware it was that finite.

I had a 24 hour grace period with the pistol and a return is no issue

reiver · 06-25-2023, 12:13 AM

[QUOTE=reiver;347568]I have the pistol and the overall condition is very good...tight. I cleaned and inspected it

gunbugs · 06-25-2023, 02:03 AM

C&R's are only C&R's if they are in essentially original condition and have not been screwed with. Such as a Sporterized Mauser with scope base holes and a modified bolt handle and cut off stock is no longer a C&R. Although, It is possible it may still qualify if it is more than 50 years old. But I don't think so, as ATF has ruled that to obtain C&R status, it has to be original.

gunbugs · 06-25-2023, 02:09 AM

This is what I was looking for...

ATF has recognized only complete, assembled firearms as curios or relics. ATF’s classification of surplus military firearms as curios or relics has extended only to those firearms in their original military configuration. Frames or receivers of curios or relics are not generally recognized as curios or relics.

06-17-2023, 11:47 PM	#1
reiver User Join Date: Feb 2023 Posts: 132 Thanks: 81 Thanked 149 Times in 63 Posts	Help with a Commercial Luger I've been told this is an original 1920 9mm DWM but I find the mis matched finish and the sights to be unlike anything I've seen from that genre. The rear sight has roll pins and a 'modern' screw base...the front site looks very un German and very US. I don't see any Germany import stamp....I am no expert but can't find anything similar in my reference books. The barrel profile looks unusual too...so? What do you think? Attached Thumbnails

06-18-2023, 08:03 PM	#6
reiver User Join Date: Feb 2023 Posts: 132 Thanks: 81 Thanked 149 Times in 63 Posts	I made an offer based upon a shooter/modified Luger as he says it cycles perfectly.... might be fun if he will seriously lower his 'buy now' price. He accepted my offer that was a shooter price.... he's come to the conclusion it is simply an aftermarket job. Money back if it does not cycle properly. On that cycling issue with the long barrels...this is 9mm btw. Was the ammo too weak or too hot that caused issues? That is a lot of 'mass' to move in the recoil mode. OTOH, the round is in the tube longer too...so could be either as a guess. Last edited by reiver; 06-18-2023 at 09:37 PM.

06-24-2023, 03:01 PM	#9
reiver User Join Date: Feb 2023 Posts: 132 Thanks: 81 Thanked 149 Times in 63 Posts	I have the pistol and the overall condition is very good...tight. I cleaned and inspected it Last edited by reiver; 06-25-2023 at 12:14 AM. Reason: double post

06-24-2023, 05:36 PM	#11
reiver User Join Date: Feb 2023 Posts: 132 Thanks: 81 Thanked 149 Times in 63 Posts	The barrel is actually 14.5 in. measured from the chamber...the owner measured 'outside'. Attached Thumbnails Last edited by reiver; 06-25-2023 at 12:14 AM. Reason: wrong place

06-24-2023, 07:33 PM	#12
reiver User Join Date: Feb 2023 Posts: 132 Thanks: 81 Thanked 149 Times in 63 Posts	Xxx Last edited by reiver; 06-25-2023 at 12:15 AM. Reason: double post

06-18-2023, 10:41 AM	#2
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,670 Thanks: 769 Thanked 1,611 Times in 525 Posts	IMO someone has built a custom Luger intended for target shooting. The Luger can be an amazingly accurate pistol. I seriously doubt that DWM ever built anything like that. Better pictures showing details, including the serial numbers, would help to confirm or disprove my opinion.

06-18-2023, 11:32 AM	#3
reiver User Join Date: Feb 2023 Posts: 132 Thanks: 81 Thanked 149 Times in 63 Posts	He only shows a few pictures and never the serial number nor the top of the sight/pistol. If you look closely, you can see roll pins in the rear sight and a modern screw base on the left. The front sight blade is also secured with a roll pin....Roll pins were 'invented/patented' in 1948. I agree this was an after the fact barrel event. The serial number is 91472 He is now saying it was a Stoeger build in the proper period.

06-18-2023, 01:38 PM	#5
reiver User Join Date: Feb 2023 Posts: 132 Thanks: 81 Thanked 149 Times in 63 Posts	I am not purchasing based upon numerous responses fro those with more experience than I. From another Luger site... "Back in the late 1960, early 1970s there was a place in Minnesota advertising that they would convert conventional 4" barreled Lugers to Luger Carbines. I don't recall prices but if you sent them a 4" barreled Luger they sent you it back with a long barrel. This looks like one of the conversions they offered. I kept one of their catalogs" " Thanks for your input.

06-18-2023, 11:19 PM	#7
Mac Cat Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 670 Thanks: 2,009 Thanked 542 Times in 292 Posts	A Carbine luger has a forestock. This gun has none, which I suspect would make it more difficult to aim. I wonder if it was intended to work with a should stock, too. It will certainly be an interesting gun to shoot.

06-19-2023, 12:38 AM	#8
reiver User Join Date: Feb 2023 Posts: 132 Thanks: 81 Thanked 149 Times in 63 Posts	I have a carbine shoulder stock and can't imagine shooting that piece without it. Arty Lugers are fine either way with an 8 in. barrel but the stock with a two hand grip is a great platform...I suspect that same hold will be fine with the cannon barrel.

06-24-2023, 05:28 PM	#10
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,670 Thanks: 769 Thanked 1,611 Times in 525 Posts	The stats for those +P Gold Dot loads show it to be pretty hot. The original load for the P.08 Luger was a 123 grain bullet at approximately 1090 fps. It's also a rather expensive cartridge to be shooting often. The Luger operates best with a specific impulse provided by the cartridge. The best powders will be fast to medium burning in a standard Luger. However, such powders would likely require pressures beyond reasonable to operate what you have. If you reload, I'd try a powder such as Autocomp or Unique that burns slower and longer down the barrel and has a longer "peak" in it's graph pattern than a faster powder. Start low and work up keeping a very close watch for signs of pressure.

06-24-2023, 09:27 PM	#13
wlyon Lifer 2X Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Somewhere in Montana Posts: 2,614 Thanks: 3,140 Thanked 2,519 Times in 939 Posts	Actually one should never shoot +P ammo in old firearms. They were not designed for this load. Unless the operators manual says +P is ok avoid it. Bill __________________ Bill Lyon

06-24-2023, 10:49 PM	#14
gunbugs Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Fairbanks, Alaska. Home of the best moose. Posts: 635 Thanks: 335 Thanked 1,139 Times in 377 Posts	T/C Thompson Center rear sight. Pretty obvious. I've got a couple laying around the shop.

06-24-2023, 10:53 PM	#15
gunbugs Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Fairbanks, Alaska. Home of the best moose. Posts: 635 Thanks: 335 Thanked 1,139 Times in 377 Posts	And I would note that if the barrel length is 14 1/2", and you put a stock on it, you now have a "short barreled rifle" requiring registration with the Feds. Carbine stocks are for real carbines. Navy stocks are for real navy's, and Artillery stocks are for LP08's. Any other combination runs afoul of the law. 200 bucks is cheap to keep yourself out of court.

06-24-2023, 11:42 PM	#16
reiver User Join Date: Feb 2023 Posts: 132 Thanks: 81 Thanked 149 Times in 63 Posts	The barrel/chamber are 'modern' as this is not an original LP08.. Last edited by reiver; 06-25-2023 at 12:16 AM. Reason: wrong place

06-25-2023, 12:12 AM	#17
reiver User Join Date: Feb 2023 Posts: 132 Thanks: 81 Thanked 149 Times in 63 Posts	I've decided to return the pistol due to the ATF issue...I was unaware the LP08 Arty /carbine exemption did not cover other similar pistols so you gave good advice and made me do some investigating. IOW, you can't put a Navy stock on an Arty LP08 as that was not the issue item. I was unaware it was that finite. I had a 24 hour grace period with the pistol and a return is no issue

06-25-2023, 12:13 AM	#18
reiver User Join Date: Feb 2023 Posts: 132 Thanks: 81 Thanked 149 Times in 63 Posts	[QUOTE=reiver;347568]I have the pistol and the overall condition is very good...tight. I cleaned and inspected it

06-25-2023, 02:03 AM	#19
gunbugs Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Fairbanks, Alaska. Home of the best moose. Posts: 635 Thanks: 335 Thanked 1,139 Times in 377 Posts	C&R's are only C&R's if they are in essentially original condition and have not been screwed with. Such as a Sporterized Mauser with scope base holes and a modified bolt handle and cut off stock is no longer a C&R. Although, It is possible it may still qualify if it is more than 50 years old. But I don't think so, as ATF has ruled that to obtain C&R status, it has to be original.

06-25-2023, 02:09 AM	#20
gunbugs Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Fairbanks, Alaska. Home of the best moose. Posts: 635 Thanks: 335 Thanked 1,139 Times in 377 Posts	This is what I was looking for... ATF has recognized only complete, assembled firearms as curios or relics. ATF’s classification of surplus military firearms as curios or relics has extended only to those firearms in their original military configuration. Frames or receivers of curios or relics are not generally recognized as curios or relics.