What became of the Turkish Navy Lugers?

[Norme]

In an event that was to have far reaching consequences, two Imperial German warships, the Göben and the Breslau, sought refuge at Constantinople (now Istanbul) from British naval forces in the opening days of WW1. As Turkey was officially neutral, this caused a huge political uproar, which was solved when Germany "donated" these two vessels, together with their crews (and Lugers), to Turkey. Partly as a result of this, Turkey sided with Germany, and these two ships, renamed the Yavuz Sultan Selim and the Midilli, served in the Turkish Navy throughout the war (the Midilli struck a mine and sank in1918).
The Göben would have carried about 120, and the Breslau about 70 Navy Lugers, and I wonder whether any of these have survived in Turkey. Perhaps forum member Evren can help? Regards, Norm

[evrenay]

Dear Norme,

I have never seen or heard of any kind of Turkish Navy Lugers. There is always a rumor that Turkish Jandarma (Gendarmerie) received some artilleries or the Turkish Army had Lugers during WW1 and after it at independence war during wiping English and Greek forces out of Anatolia.
However there are no real evidences for it. I think, it is because most of the Lugers were donated by German officers as they were serving in Turkey under Ottoman reign. These were not restamped by Ottoman and given to service the way they were (attention: I have no proof of it, I am just expressing my own ideas).

As I said before since now I had the possibility to disassemble some Artilleries (1915,1916,1917, I have never seen a 1914 Artillery in Turkey) and I never met a Turkish sign on them. Neither my Luger fan friend who is buying and selling Lugers in Turkey nearly for 25 years.

I also own a Colt 1911 .38 Super pistol which was made in year 1944 and was left to Turkish Army in late forties by American OSS (Office of Strategic Services -former CIA in Europa). You can see this pistol in this thread: http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=26500
It is the pistol just below the Artillery Luger with Shoulder stock. You can realize the perfect original Colt blueing on it. The grips are changed by me, original bakelite grips are in my safe.

Anyway, Turkish Army didn't use these .38 Super pistols for more than 60 years. They simply kept them in warehouses and never shoot with them, because .38 Super is not standard ammunition for the Army and MKEK has never imported it. After 60 years, at last they decided to sell them to some officers and under-officers.
Imagine, as these .38 Super pistols brought to market by the officers who bought them from the Army, there was no ammunition to shoot, because the only official importer of new guns and ammunition is MKEK and it wasn't importing this particular caliber.

The bore of my .38 Super pistol was so clean that, I thought it came just out of Colt factory. After my purchase I learned that these pistols with G.H.D (inspecting General) and Ordnance Stamp of Springfield Armory are extremely rare and only 400 of them were produced and delivered to OSS Building in Rosalyn. In the States they can worth up to 36500 USD (it was an auction).

After too many words, I am coming to conclusion: There are no stamps on these .38 Super pistols which are showing that they belong to the Turkish Army. I even know Colt 1911 .45 ACP pistols with US PROPERTY stamps on them which are/were in service at Turkish Army.

I think our guys do not take care of this kind of stuff much. They take it, use it and rarely sell it to own people, if it was donated scrap it (donations can not be sold to third parities that's why we have warehouses full of M-1 Garands and Carbines), if it was bought, sell it to overseas for 5 cents each. Just like they did with our beautiful Ottoman Mausers(K98).

Such a SHAME, such a SHAME.
They were part of our history. Instead of selling them in Turkish market, they sent them to USA for 30-35 bucks each. They had beautiful Ottoman (Sultan Abdülhamit) stamps on them.

Lange rede kurze Sinn, too much talk has less meaning (or makes less sense). I do not believe that donated Lugers were stamped by Ottoman or Turkish officials. They used them the way they are and sold them, scrapped them the way they came.

If someone can give me specific serial numbers, I can look for these in the future.

However, navy Luger's are also extremely rare and valuable in Turkey. I know people who payed 6000 or 7000 Euros for a clean Navy, while others, 4 and 6 inches, change hands for 2000-5000 Euros.

So, do not expect any Artillery, Navy or 4 inch Luger's which were stamped by Ottoman or Turkish. The only ones we know here are:

1- Emniyet İşleri Umum Müdürlüğü (Police, Contract order)

2- T.C. Subaylara Mahsustur (Turkiish Army,Mauser, assembled from differen parts made in different times, that's why they never work correct)

3- Hava Ordusuna Mahsustur (Air Army, well I have no idea. You guys wrote in your books that they came with 50 FockeWulf-190 Planes which were delivered in 1942. I have no valid reason to object it, I hope to see a Hava Ordusuna Mahsustur P08 in the next months, as soon as I see it I will share the photos with you.)

Small Glossary:

T.C. stands for Türkiye Cumhuriyeti not "Cümüriyeti" means: Turkish Republic

Subaylara Mahsustur: Subay-lar-a: Officer-plural-accusative Mahsus-tur: Belongs-infinitive.
Means: Belongs to Officers

Hava Ordusuna Mahsustur: Hava: Air Ordu-su-na: to Army. Means: Belongs to the Air Army
In modern times instead of Air Army we use Air Force (TuAF: Turkish Air Force) and instead of "mahsus-tur" we take "ait-tir"

Crescent and Star: Has less to do with religion, it comes from the first nomads coming from middle Asia to Anatolia at the beginning of 10. Century. Turks had the Crescent and the Star on their flags long before they converted to Islam from Shamanism.

Emniyet: Sicherheit (Statt, Gesichert) on the frame

Ateş: Feuer (Statt, Geladen) on the extractor.

I hope, I could help you a little.

[irishcop45]

I love those babies under a full head of steam! Check out that black coal smoke rolling out!!

[Steve Lempitski]

History channel had a show on the forgotten enemy of WW1 - the Ottoman empire. The British military originally had dismissed the Turks as an enemy, thinking victory would be within a few weeks.... the result? The 2 greatest defeats of the British army in the entire war were at the hands of the Turks!

[lugerholsterrepair]

Evren..Very interesting reading! Thanks for posting..

[irishcop45]

[QUOTE=irishcop45;221737]I love those babies under a full head of steam! Check out that black coal smoke ro
Beautiful!! Good stuff that!

[Douglas Jr.]

What really breaks my heart is to know that SMS Goeben was the last one ship of the former German Imperial Navy to be scrapped, in 1973. It would be great if it had survived as a museum ship... a shame indeed.

Douglas