1906/24 Bern in 9mm - Page 2

Pete Ebbink · 08-27-2005, 12:01 PM

Here is a nice full view of the luger in question, that Chuck sent to me :

wlyon · 08-27-2005, 07:05 PM

Chuck.. Do not be hard on yourself. Allof us who have been in this luger collecting for a long time have like you paid our dues. We just emerge mayber a little bit smarter or at least more leery. Just don't give up or think your alone. Most of us are just not as up front about it as you. Regards and happy collecting. Bill.

Chuckc · 08-28-2005, 01:43 AM

I contacted the seller and he agreed to allow a return for a full refund. I did that today and the transaction was smooth and friendly.

I posted a like response on the gunboards.com/luger forum and added my call for a CD based book updated with better color pictures and variations. Such an undertaking may very well be the project of luger collectors associated with these forums. At any rate, an updated reference is badly needed. AT least by me, and I would venture to say some others as well.

Most the references available seem to be 30 plus years old or in the coffee table category. A CD can hold a lot of information, indexed in many different ways. And it certainly needs to address methods of detecting refinshes, copys, alterations, etc. And a CD based book would avoid the high costs associated with publishing a traditional book.

Thanks to all who offerd input and support.

But just to be safe, I am reading "Power Poker" by Doyle Brunson.

Pete Ebbink · 08-29-2005, 10:54 AM

Congratulations, Chuck...

Good guys do win from time to time !

45TAA45 · 09-08-2005, 12:57 PM

Bob
What is Simpson's E-mail address or Web site. I am new to the forum and would like to look at their Lugers, Thanks.
Tom

policeluger · 09-08-2005, 01:00 PM

www.simpsonltd.com

45TAA45 · 09-08-2005, 01:07 PM

Thankyou very much.
Tom

hqbmw · 09-08-2005, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hairy
Chuckc: You said, "I am thinking about taking up tournament poker. That seems like a safer venue for beginners such as myself. Now, does a straight beat a full house?"

The way I play poker, I'd have to say yes. Can I join the game?

Welcome aboard and here's hoping things turn out okay for you.

My pair of dueces will beat both your hands and I call....... or fold..... or, no, I up the ante. Yea, that's the ticket, I up the ante and one eyed Jacks are wild; I myself possessing
two eyes!

I have to fess up, no bluffing, that I guess I should take my first Luger purchase apart now. You can guess where I bought it (with no worries about its authenticity.) I did find the grips nonmatching, but considered that a non-issue because I read somewhere that some Lugers had non-matching grips.

(two-eyed) Jack Hiles

Dwight Gruber · 09-08-2005, 03:06 PM

Grips match, except for some Commercial guns which are unmarked.

--Dwight

hqbmw · 09-08-2005, 03:45 PM

I just disassembled my 1936 S/42 that Ralph Shattuck sold me last December. when I was as gullable as anybody could possibly be. I had read John Walter's The Luger Story and Charles Kenyon's Lugers at Random which in this small mind of mine had made me an instant expert on Lugers. There was NO way I could get taken; not with all the knowledge I had in the many gigabytes of the Hiles brain.

Upon a gracious greeting into Ralph's Luger room; (I have No idea why he would share such a treasure with ME), my tongue was tied into square knots. Streams of drool dribbled from the corners of my jaw that itself had dropped to lie on my late 40ish six pack of a gut. Gigabytes of The Story at Random, or is it random Stories of Kenyon by Walters Chronkite whizzed past my mouth, leaving me speechless and dumbstruck. At this point, I might as well have gone to a local pawn Shop to be sold The Rarest Swiss- Simson-Krieghoff-.45 Artillery with matching Holster Stock, one of a kind, belonged to Hitler himself and never fired Luger!

But this is where things changed for. I found a man who shared his life's passion with me for over 3 hours only to sell a single, not so rare, but exquisite to my opened eyes S/42. So overwhelmed was I that I was afraid to open my mouth to allow the droll to drip anymore, but Ralph went through the education process as I am sure he has done time and time again over the years. He didn't know me from Adam and had no reason to believe I could afford even the modest gun I bought.

You see, a Greenhorn like me armed with the books I had read, thinking I was somewhat knowledgable in the subjest of lugers, is the easiest targets to sell. Ralph was aware of that and did nothing to discourage me or take advantage of the situation. Nor has he ever neglected to respond to any of my many stupid questions I posed to him long before I knew of The Luger Forum. Now you people have to put up with my stupid questions and I can allow Ralph to relax in his room of memeories and enjoy his collection.

Why would Ralph intentionally subvert his reputaion to sell a gun he didn't even own? He did say the gun was consigned and if he wanted to make money, wouldn't he be better off selling one of his own beauties? I think he probably took the word of another not so knowledgable collector that the Swiss gun he sold was real; and probably this person is one of us who thinks he knows his stuff simply because he read all of Jan's book as I have, or Mr Walter's and Mr Kenyon's books. Mistakes happen. This consignor may well be one of the know experts as well, a distinguished colector admired by all; who himself made a mistake and got lazy.

Anayway, after the reception Ralph gave me into his own house and into his room with all his prized collection, and the hours he spent with a drooling fool namely me, I find it very hard to believe he set out to take somebody purposely.

Jack Hiles
Mesa AZ
480 219 6676

Imperial Arms · 09-08-2005, 05:19 PM

It is a shame to hear of new collectors being taken as prey. It is always advisable to enquire about a person's reputation from a number of seasoned collectors before making a purchase. It will save you the headache and possible loss of money.

Albert

drbuster · 09-08-2005, 07:31 PM

After reading this thread, I felt compelled to add my 1.5 cents worth. I agree totally with "hqbmw" about Ralph. He has been in the business too long and not about to allow his reputation to suffer. Also note that he did in fact issue a refund, which, I'm sure came out of his own pocket, since it was a consignment piece and the original money went to the consignor. In other words, he made good. Ralph is in his mid 70's now and is slowing down. He has told me that in his prime, he sold up to 100 lugers a month. It is impossible (my words) to thoroughly check out all of them. Thus he had an iron clad guarantee that he has lived up to. I have spoken to several other long time dealers who have fondness for Ralph and say he would NEVER premeditate a fraudulent deal. As for Chuck's 1906 W + F (proper Ron Wood terminology), no one has considered the possibility that it was fitted with a 9mm barrel in CH by a military armorer. This could have properly come out of CH and NOT be a product of "Waffenfabrik USA". But then, how can one be certain. The issue is now moot as Chuck got his money back and Ralph has the gun back.

Pete Ebbink · 09-09-2005, 02:44 PM

Doc,

Shattuck had quoted at least two "references" of existing '24 Berns with 9 mm barrels to Chuck that just did not pan out.

1st. book cited was the Bobba book that only showed the known '24/'29 Bern transitional in 9mm (serial # 33092) that was well documented. But this citing does not establish a '24 Bern in 9 mm.

The 2nd. book cited was the Horst book that only showed a known '29 Bern in 9 mm. Again this citing does not etablish a '24 Bern in 9mm that left the factory that way...

Both references cited did not "prove" the existence of a '24 Bern leaving the factory with an original 9 mm barrel. There was also a claim made to Chuck that over 100 9mm '24 Berns are known...(as Chuck had reported in his opening post).

If locally rebarrelled in CH, why would this create a "rareness" of the gun Chuck had purchased to drive the selling price up to $ 4500 ? A very nice conditioned '24 Bern all factory original might go for $ 3000. If rebarreled in CH...does it not just become a rebarrelled "shooter" then...???...even if the new barrel had the right serial number crudely added...???

And if Ron Wood is correct in stating the barrel lug number appeared from Chuck's photo to be "75" and not "73"...then there is a lot more wrong with the piece and it really is a nicely dressed up $ 1200 shooter...certainly not a $ 4500 collector luger.

p.s. I do not think the issue with this luger is "moot"...as it will just be offered to the next guy...

drbuster · 09-09-2005, 09:08 PM

Pete, You are absolutely correct in all you say. I just find it hard for me to believe that all this was made with premeditated desire to pass off a fraudulant piece. Heresay may have been used to quote a putative article, it was not obviously true. It should be pointed out to the seller. I think it was, thus the refund of the money. But, as you say, the next buyer will be a victim, of sorts. When I see the items on the table at Reno, I think "caveat emptor". I also ask you and probably Russ for your takes on the item in question.

Pete Ebbink · 02-07-2006, 11:37 AM

Another 06/24 Bern claimed to be in 9 mm...

Lots of 9 mm barrels have been showing up on M1929 Berns here in the USA over the past 2-3 years...maybe more are now finding their way onto M1906 W+F's...???

The barrel on this offering on Gun Broker and the photo of the previous gun bought (and returned to the seller) by Chuck Campbell shows a barrel of a little "fatter' profile than the typical pencil-thin 7,65 mm barrels found on Swiss lugers. Rather than a relined or rebored 7,65 barrel to 9mm, these two guns appear to be sporting a fatter barrel altogether...

Nothing wrong with a fellow shooter swapping out to a different barrel. As long as it is declared when the piece is sold. This barrel has little swiss crosses added (do not know if the serial is forced matched or not...)...so it was either done in CH for a shooter or done by Waffenfabrik-USA to deceive.

This one is being sold out of MN State...not sure that is significant or not.

Be careful out there... (as they used to say on the Hills Street Blues TV show).

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...?Item=43371152

minigun · 02-08-2006, 03:38 AM

I liked the term that the gun is always suspect until proven otherwise.

NavyLugerLover · 09-28-2006, 06:15 AM

06-24 in 9mm -----> Fake...

My 9mm 06-29 (made in 1943):

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...37_29small.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...29_29small.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...15_29small.jpg

08-27-2005, 07:05 PM	#22
wlyon Lifer 2X Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Somewhere in Montana Posts: 2,614 Thanks: 3,140 Thanked 2,519 Times in 939 Posts	Chuck.. Do not be hard on yourself. Allof us who have been in this luger collecting for a long time have like you paid our dues. We just emerge mayber a little bit smarter or at least more leery. Just don't give up or think your alone. Most of us are just not as up front about it as you. Regards and happy collecting. Bill. __________________ Bill Lyon

08-28-2005, 01:43 AM	#23
Chuckc User Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Cave Creek, AZ Posts: 68 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I contacted the seller and he agreed to allow a return for a full refund. I did that today and the transaction was smooth and friendly. I posted a like response on the gunboards.com/luger forum and added my call for a CD based book updated with better color pictures and variations. Such an undertaking may very well be the project of luger collectors associated with these forums. At any rate, an updated reference is badly needed. AT least by me, and I would venture to say some others as well. Most the references available seem to be 30 plus years old or in the coffee table category. A CD can hold a lot of information, indexed in many different ways. And it certainly needs to address methods of detecting refinshes, copys, alterations, etc. And a CD based book would avoid the high costs associated with publishing a traditional book. Thanks to all who offerd input and support. But just to be safe, I am reading "Power Poker" by Doyle Brunson. __________________ Art in metal and wood

09-08-2005, 03:45 PM	#30
hqbmw User Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Mesa AZ Posts: 228 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I just disassembled my 1936 S/42 that Ralph Shattuck sold me last December. when I was as gullable as anybody could possibly be. I had read John Walter's The Luger Story and Charles Kenyon's Lugers at Random which in this small mind of mine had made me an instant expert on Lugers. There was NO way I could get taken; not with all the knowledge I had in the many gigabytes of the Hiles brain. Upon a gracious greeting into Ralph's Luger room; (I have No idea why he would share such a treasure with ME), my tongue was tied into square knots. Streams of drool dribbled from the corners of my jaw that itself had dropped to lie on my late 40ish six pack of a gut. Gigabytes of The Story at Random, or is it random Stories of Kenyon by Walters Chronkite whizzed past my mouth, leaving me speechless and dumbstruck. At this point, I might as well have gone to a local pawn Shop to be sold The Rarest Swiss- Simson-Krieghoff-.45 Artillery with matching Holster Stock, one of a kind, belonged to Hitler himself and never fired Luger! But this is where things changed for. I found a man who shared his life's passion with me for over 3 hours only to sell a single, not so rare, but exquisite to my opened eyes S/42. So overwhelmed was I that I was afraid to open my mouth to allow the droll to drip anymore, but Ralph went through the education process as I am sure he has done time and time again over the years. He didn't know me from Adam and had no reason to believe I could afford even the modest gun I bought. You see, a Greenhorn like me armed with the books I had read, thinking I was somewhat knowledgable in the subjest of lugers, is the easiest targets to sell. Ralph was aware of that and did nothing to discourage me or take advantage of the situation. Nor has he ever neglected to respond to any of my many stupid questions I posed to him long before I knew of The Luger Forum. Now you people have to put up with my stupid questions and I can allow Ralph to relax in his room of memeories and enjoy his collection. Why would Ralph intentionally subvert his reputaion to sell a gun he didn't even own? He did say the gun was consigned and if he wanted to make money, wouldn't he be better off selling one of his own beauties? I think he probably took the word of another not so knowledgable collector that the Swiss gun he sold was real; and probably this person is one of us who thinks he knows his stuff simply because he read all of Jan's book as I have, or Mr Walter's and Mr Kenyon's books. Mistakes happen. This consignor may well be one of the know experts as well, a distinguished colector admired by all; who himself made a mistake and got lazy. Anayway, after the reception Ralph gave me into his own house and into his room with all his prized collection, and the hours he spent with a drooling fool namely me, I find it very hard to believe he set out to take somebody purposely. Jack Hiles Mesa AZ 480 219 6676 __________________ Jack Hiles Mesa AZ

09-28-2006, 06:15 AM	#37
NavyLugerLover User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: American Citizen outside the USA (Austria) Posts: 65 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	06-24 in 9mm -----> Fake... My 9mm 06-29 (made in 1943): http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...37_29small.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...29_29small.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...15_29small.jpg __________________ Swiss Lugers, (.30): DWM 1900, 1906 2nd variation, W+F 1906-24, 1929 Privat, 1929 Military, 9 mm 1929 Military. WW1 DWM German Lugers (9mm): Lange Pistolen P08-14 1916 & 1917, P08 1913, P08-14 1917, Navy P1904 altered safety, Navy P04-1906 downward safety. WW 2 Mauser German Lugers (9mm): 42-1940, byf 41, byf 42 black widow. And some other things...

08-27-2005, 12:01 PM	#21
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Here is a nice full view of the luger in question, that Chuck sent to me :

08-29-2005, 10:54 AM	#24
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Congratulations, Chuck... Good guys do win from time to time !

09-08-2005, 12:57 PM	#25
45TAA45 User Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 52 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Bob What is Simpson's E-mail address or Web site. I am new to the forum and would like to look at their Lugers, Thanks. Tom

09-08-2005, 01:00 PM	#26
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	www.simpsonltd.com

09-08-2005, 01:07 PM	#27
45TAA45 User Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 52 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thankyou very much. Tom

09-08-2005, 03:06 PM	#29
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,889 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,281 Times in 423 Posts	Grips match, except for some Commercial guns which are unmarked. --Dwight

09-08-2005, 05:19 PM	#31
Imperial Arms Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Malta, EU Posts: 579 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts	It is a shame to hear of new collectors being taken as prey. It is always advisable to enquire about a person's reputation from a number of seasoned collectors before making a purchase. It will save you the headache and possible loss of money. Albert

09-08-2005, 07:31 PM	#32
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	After reading this thread, I felt compelled to add my 1.5 cents worth. I agree totally with "hqbmw" about Ralph. He has been in the business too long and not about to allow his reputation to suffer. Also note that he did in fact issue a refund, which, I'm sure came out of his own pocket, since it was a consignment piece and the original money went to the consignor. In other words, he made good. Ralph is in his mid 70's now and is slowing down. He has told me that in his prime, he sold up to 100 lugers a month. It is impossible (my words) to thoroughly check out all of them. Thus he had an iron clad guarantee that he has lived up to. I have spoken to several other long time dealers who have fondness for Ralph and say he would NEVER premeditate a fraudulent deal. As for Chuck's 1906 W + F (proper Ron Wood terminology), no one has considered the possibility that it was fitted with a 9mm barrel in CH by a military armorer. This could have properly come out of CH and NOT be a product of "Waffenfabrik USA". But then, how can one be certain. The issue is now moot as Chuck got his money back and Ralph has the gun back.

09-09-2005, 02:44 PM	#33
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Doc, Shattuck had quoted at least two "references" of existing '24 Berns with 9 mm barrels to Chuck that just did not pan out. 1st. book cited was the Bobba book that only showed the known '24/'29 Bern transitional in 9mm (serial # 33092) that was well documented. But this citing does not establish a '24 Bern in 9 mm. The 2nd. book cited was the Horst book that only showed a known '29 Bern in 9 mm. Again this citing does not etablish a '24 Bern in 9mm that left the factory that way... Both references cited did not "prove" the existence of a '24 Bern leaving the factory with an original 9 mm barrel. There was also a claim made to Chuck that over 100 9mm '24 Berns are known...(as Chuck had reported in his opening post). If locally rebarrelled in CH, why would this create a "rareness" of the gun Chuck had purchased to drive the selling price up to $ 4500 ? A very nice conditioned '24 Bern all factory original might go for $ 3000. If rebarreled in CH...does it not just become a rebarrelled "shooter" then...???...even if the new barrel had the right serial number crudely added...??? And if Ron Wood is correct in stating the barrel lug number appeared from Chuck's photo to be "75" and not "73"...then there is a lot more wrong with the piece and it really is a nicely dressed up $ 1200 shooter...certainly not a $ 4500 collector luger. p.s. I do not think the issue with this luger is "moot"...as it will just be offered to the next guy...

09-09-2005, 09:08 PM	#34
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Pete, You are absolutely correct in all you say. I just find it hard for me to believe that all this was made with premeditated desire to pass off a fraudulant piece. Heresay may have been used to quote a putative article, it was not obviously true. It should be pointed out to the seller. I think it was, thus the refund of the money. But, as you say, the next buyer will be a victim, of sorts. When I see the items on the table at Reno, I think "caveat emptor". I also ask you and probably Russ for your takes on the item in question.

02-07-2006, 11:37 AM	#35
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Another 06/24 Bern claimed to be in 9 mm... Lots of 9 mm barrels have been showing up on M1929 Berns here in the USA over the past 2-3 years...maybe more are now finding their way onto M1906 W+F's...??? The barrel on this offering on Gun Broker and the photo of the previous gun bought (and returned to the seller) by Chuck Campbell shows a barrel of a little "fatter' profile than the typical pencil-thin 7,65 mm barrels found on Swiss lugers. Rather than a relined or rebored 7,65 barrel to 9mm, these two guns appear to be sporting a fatter barrel altogether... Nothing wrong with a fellow shooter swapping out to a different barrel. As long as it is declared when the piece is sold. This barrel has little swiss crosses added (do not know if the serial is forced matched or not...)...so it was either done in CH for a shooter or done by Waffenfabrik-USA to deceive. This one is being sold out of MN State...not sure that is significant or not. Be careful out there... (as they used to say on the Hills Street Blues TV show). http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...?Item=43371152

02-08-2006, 03:38 AM	#36
minigun User Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 424 Thanks: 15 Thanked 19 Times in 14 Posts	I liked the term that the gun is always suspect until proven otherwise.