The First Luger

[Geo99]

An amazing gun - only $92,000!

http://www.phoenixinvestmentarms.com/1563Trans8.htm

Is it just me or does this look like it might have been reblued?

- Geo

[DavidJayUden]

Very interesting. Thanks for sharing.
dju

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by Geo99

An amazing gun - only $92,000!

http://www.phoenixinvestmentarms.com/1563Trans8.htm

Is it just me or does this look like it might have been reblued?

- Geo

George,
I'll bet it is not only re-blued, but a new construction. JMHO!

[Edward Tinker]

Its interesting that no mention of serial number on either forum or google...

[Ron Wood]

Very close scrutiny advised.
Ron

[cirelaw]

Nice Box!

[Zorba]

For that kind of money, I'd insist that shipping be included!

[Mark1]

Originally Posted by Ron Wood

Very close scrutiny advised.
Ron

Ron,
The vendors are describing this gun as a transitional/trials/Swiss/presentation model. The connection to Switzerland seems to be only the address of the previous owner.
I have always understood the earliest verified Swiss trials gun to be no.26 in the Pattern Room collection now in Leeds.
What do you make of the claims here ?
Mark

[DonVoigt]

Mark,
without commenting on this specific luger, the seller is known for "creative" descriptions and also creative lugers. If you search on the dealer name for other threads, you will learn much about the background and why Ron made his cautionary statement, and my short comment.

[4 Scale]

Reproduction transitional Lugers are known to exist, created via reference to patent drawings. I saw two reproduction transitional examples displayed at the Antique Arms show in Las Vegas in 2015. The two pistols in that display were made not with intent to defraud but to achive an accurate reproduction. Gortz & Sturgess at p.193 also document several fake "transitional" pistols via photos. Given the existance of such pistols, and the reputation of the seller that Don mentions, I personally think Ron is exercising great tact when he advises "close scrutiny".

Scanning the breathless description of this alleged orginal pistol on the seller's site, I sort of laughed that all this thing needs to complete the effect is Georg Luger's initials. Sure enough, if you page down far enough you are treated to a "GL" inscription.

As a Luger novice, my personal view is if this thing was orginal, it is a steal at $92,500; if it is a fake it is overpriced by nearly $90,000.

[Ron Wood]

Originally Posted by Mark1

Ron,
The vendors are describing this gun as a transitional/trials/Swiss/presentation model. The connection to Switzerland seems to be only the address of the previous owner.
I have always understood the earliest verified Swiss trials gun to be no.26 in the Pattern Room collection now in Leeds.
What do you make of the claims here ?
Mark

Surprisingly, there are a small number of surviving early Swiss prototype (1898) and pre-production (1899) guns. Many of the authentic survivors have had modifications that were applied during the time that they were being evaluated by the Swiss, Dutch and British. Not surprisingly, there are also a significant number of forgeries of this series. The known surviving serial numbers, authentic and fake, have been cataloged by Görtz and Sturgess. The highest serial number known is 40, and it exists in essentially as manufactured configuration.

I do not care to comment one way or the other on the vendor of this piece, I will let that for others. I can and will make a couple of observations on the gun itself (as an aside, there exists another serial number 8 example that has been proven to be a forgery). As presented, the wording of the ad would lead us to believe that the serial numbers of these early pieces were not chronologically sequential, a statement of conjecture that I do not believe is supported. Under that premise, the notation of the configuration of this piece as “pre-hold open” would stand up. But, given that serial numbers 5 and 6 that still exist and all other authentic pieces in this series possess a hold open calls that claim into question. There are a few other minute details that, to my eye, are incongruous with the other authentic pieces in this early series. I do not care to elaborate but, as I said before, it requires considerable scrutiny to pick up on the nuances.

[wlyon]

Ron
Well said as usual. Bill

[Stucki]

SN 8 from the Swiss trials is documented in reports in the Swiss Federal Archives. It had a completely different safety (most likely a lever to block the grip safety, like SN 6). The standard safety type of this "SN 8" was developed in 1899 due to the Swiss requirements. In addition the real SN 8 had a 122mm barrel.

Alexander

[drbuster]

This gun was examined at a Reno show a few years ago. Those present (I cannot mention names because of lack of permission but Ralph Shattuck had already passed away!). Most felt that this was a complete fabrication. I recall it being mentioned that early toggle trains like this had been newly made. Also there was concern about the trigger, the feeling being that it should have been the narrow early type. The seller was not present during this session. Ron's advice is well taken.

[Stucki]

I just had a look at this site (phoenixinvestmentarms.com). They present e.g. a Swiss Pistol 1900 (not a commercial one) with SN14364 - the description contains a lot of nonsense. Not really a serious dealer!

Alexander

[Dwight Gruber]

Originally Posted by Stucki

Not really a serious dealer!

A very serious dealer, indeed.

--Dwight

[Dwight Gruber]

Originally Posted by 4 Scale

Reproduction transitional Lugers are known to exist, created via reference to patent drawings....they were made not with intent to defraud but to achieve an accurate reproduction...

Trying to be as civil as possible--every one of this ilk was was created to defraud the unwary. Just look at the circumstances of their creation, their fine details, and the prices asked.

--Dwight

[Ron Wood]

Dwight,
I think that perhaps the guns Greg (4 Scale) is referring to are the ones that Mike Krause has displayed at gun shows that never existed. He created them from scratch from the patent drawings. Here is one example that I photographed at the Las Vegas show.

[Nomadr]

One thing missing from that display box is the Vaseline bottle slot!

Bob

[4 Scale]

Originally Posted by Ron Wood

Dwight,
I think that perhaps the guns Greg (4 Scale) is referring to are the ones that Mike Krause has displayed at gun shows that never existed...

Yes. Here's a photo of most of the exhibit.