Looking for 1905 45 ACP Luger blueprints - Page 3

LugerMan.com · 02-15-2012, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lugerholsterrepair

If you look at what John Browning made in his small workshop in the late 1800's you could be right.

My point exactly ;0)

My first project was a flint lock gun , and it was finished when i was 14 years old ;0)

And yes it id shoot ;0)

I am sorry i did not save it. I wish I had it now.

Vlim · 02-15-2012, 04:52 PM

You can try to contact Herbert Werle in Germany. He is currently producing a 45 ACP version as well. His site is www.waffen-werle.de. His English is fine, he used to work as an armorer for the US army in Germany.

LugerMan.com · 02-15-2012, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlim

You can try to contact Herbert Werle in Germany. He is currently producing a 45 ACP version as well. His site is www.waffen-werle.de. His English is fine, he used to work as an armorer for the US army in Germany.

Thanks, i will do that.
I was going to email.
But i can call as well.
Thanks.

Dwight Gruber · 02-21-2012, 08:30 PM

Eugene,

I know that I am coming in late to this, but here are some thoughts...

Do not copy the Aberman Luger, use the specifications for the pistol which was actually used for the Army test. The test pistol has the standard Luger grip angle, the Aberman and Norton guns do not.

Make sure the pistol actually functions.

Plan on making lots of extra magazines for the people who actually shoot.

The price point must be below $5,000--preferably closer to $3,000--for Real People to consider buying. Otherwise you are in the same ballpark as Mike's version, or the new limited-edition Krieghoff--most people who would be capable buyers might rather spend the money on some really nice original Carbine or Fat Barrel, or the like. Frankly, you can find a John Martz conversion cheaper than your price point.

--Dwight

LugerMan.com · 02-22-2012, 10:49 AM

Hi,
I am bit confused.

Aberman ? Norton ?
Different angle of the grip ?
Can you elaborate on that a little ?

But how can i find original blueprints for a test gun ?
If i can hardly find blue prints for a copy ?

Martz conversion are not exact look and feel of the test gun.
I have seen them , they do look good, but different.

Ron Wood · 02-22-2012, 01:31 PM

The .45 actually used in the test trials had a 55 degree grip angle the same as all other Lugers. The Aberman and Norton guns have a 60 degree grip angle.

saab-bob · 02-22-2012, 02:11 PM

Ron
Is the different grip angle a attempt to make the .45 ACP version feed better?
The .45 cartridge has more of a blunt nose shape then the 9 mm and esp the 30 luger.so it makes sense to me.
I used to reload with truncated cone bullets in 9 mm. Those cartridges feed great in everything. Even my SS Mitchell!
On a related subject. I recently bought some RWS 9 mm ammo on sale from Big 5.
Not to sound weird,but that ammo is beautiful. The shape is sublime and it has this copper color that just glows.Very high quality.
Bad news,it wont work in any of my lugers. The OAL is a little to long. It wont feed reliably.
So it goes in the Browning Hi-Powers,they work with everything.
Bob

LugerMan.com · 02-22-2012, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Wood

The .45 actually used in the test trials had a 55 degree grip angle the same as all other Lugers. The Aberman and Norton guns have a 60 degree grip angle.

Let me get this right,
the blue prints i was going to get from a Mike K. in CA are of the wrong grip angle ? By wrong i mean not original ?

Ron Wood · 02-22-2012, 03:07 PM

The gun used in the test trials with the 55-degree grip angle and the two collections guns (Aberman and Norton) with the 60-degree grip angle are all original and all made by DWM in approximately the 1907 to 1910 timeframe. The blueprints made by Mike K. were made from the Aberman gun. So the blueprints are correct for a 60-degree grip angle .45 caliber Luger made by DWM. To my knowledge no blue prints or engineering drawings have been located or reverse engineered for the 55-degree test trials gun.

Ron Wood · 02-22-2012, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saab-bob

Ron
Is the different grip angle a attempt to make the .45 ACP version feed better?

My guess is that the actual gun used in the test trials was a tool room prototype made for the trials and followed the same grip angle as standard Lugers. The later pistols (presumably brought for back up to the test piece) I believe were more a marketing ploy. The sharper grip angle made it look more like the Colt, pehaps giving it more appeal to the US military, and may have been an attempt to influence the purchase of additional Lugers. Judging from the firing results of the .45 Luger test piece and more modern firing of the Aberman and Norton guns lead me to believe that both grip angles were successfully engineered to feed and function reliably.

sheepherder · 02-22-2012, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saab-bob

...I recently bought some RWS 9 mm ammo...it wont work in any of my lugers. The OAL is a little to long. It wont feed reliably...

Why not just run it through the 9mm seating die and seat the bullet deeper???

LugerMan.com · 02-22-2012, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Wood

My guess is that the actual gun used in the test trials was a tool room prototype made for the trials and followed the same grip angle as standard Lugers. The later pistols (presumably brought for back up to the test piece) I believe were more a marketing ploy. The sharper grip angle made it look more like the Colt, pehaps giving it more appeal to the US military, and may have been an attempt to influence the purchase of additional Lugers. Judging from the firing results of the .45 Luger test piece and more modern firing of the Aberman and Norton guns lead me to believe that both grip angles were successfully engineered to feed and function reliably.

I am going to tool up for a a 45 GAP conversion.

That way i retain a 55 degree angle everyone holds so dear,
and keep the price tag at 3000 and get a 45 caliber out of it.

Will see how well that starts moving.

And then after i learn my lessons , i will move in to 1907 model.

I really do not want to venture in a 200K project without some support from the world.

But i will keep thinking about it and moving in that direction.

Ron Wood · 02-22-2012, 11:37 PM

Follow your dream!

Good Luck!!!

lugerholsterrepair · 02-23-2012, 01:05 AM

I have a real slacker here in the leather shop..Know what I tell him every day? Less yakkin-get crackin!

LugerMan.com · 02-23-2012, 07:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lugerholsterrepair

I have a real slacker here in the leather shop..Know what I tell him every day? Less yakkin-get crackin!

Doing that exactly ;0)

lfid · 07-22-2013, 05:21 AM

Hi lugerman,
how is the 45 gap project going ?

Im interested in a 45 gap target custom luger, and could provide the donor luger parts

thanks
Bill

John Sabato · 07-23-2013, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lugerholsterrepair

I have a real slacker here in the leather shop..Know what I tell him every day? Less yakkin-get crackin!

Would that fellow's first name be "Jerry" ??

lugerholsterrepair · 07-23-2013, 02:04 PM

John, yeah..that's the no good slacker I was talking about!

John Sabato · 07-23-2013, 03:26 PM

Well don't fire him unless you find a good replacement... good help is hard to find...

wlyon · 07-23-2013, 09:32 PM

Jerry
Please ,please do not fire him until I get all my holsters fixed. Thanks Bill

02-22-2012, 10:49 AM	#45
LugerMan.com User Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 377 Thanks: 91 Thanked 354 Times in 112 Posts	Never to late to post Hi, I am bit confused. Aberman ? Norton ? Different angle of the grip ? Can you elaborate on that a little ? But how can i find original blueprints for a test gun ? If i can hardly find blue prints for a copy ? Martz conversion are not exact look and feel of the test gun. I have seen them , they do look good, but different.

02-22-2012, 01:31 PM	#46
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	The .45 actually used in the test trials had a 55 degree grip angle the same as all other Lugers. The Aberman and Norton guns have a 60 degree grip angle. Attached Thumbnails __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

02-22-2012, 02:11 PM	#47
saab-bob User Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: So Cal Posts: 459 Thanks: 774 Thanked 143 Times in 87 Posts	Ron Is the different grip angle a attempt to make the .45 ACP version feed better? The .45 cartridge has more of a blunt nose shape then the 9 mm and esp the 30 luger.so it makes sense to me. I used to reload with truncated cone bullets in 9 mm. Those cartridges feed great in everything. Even my SS Mitchell! On a related subject. I recently bought some RWS 9 mm ammo on sale from Big 5. Not to sound weird,but that ammo is beautiful. The shape is sublime and it has this copper color that just glows.Very high quality. Bad news,it wont work in any of my lugers. The OAL is a little to long. It wont feed reliably. So it goes in the Browning Hi-Powers,they work with everything. Bob __________________ "I think,therefore I own guns"

02-22-2012, 03:07 PM	#49
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	The gun used in the test trials with the 55-degree grip angle and the two collections guns (Aberman and Norton) with the 60-degree grip angle are all original and all made by DWM in approximately the 1907 to 1910 timeframe. The blueprints made by Mike K. were made from the Aberman gun. So the blueprints are correct for a 60-degree grip angle .45 caliber Luger made by DWM. To my knowledge no blue prints or engineering drawings have been located or reverse engineered for the 55-degree test trials gun. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

02-22-2012, 11:37 PM	#53
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	Follow your dream! Good Luck!!! __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

02-15-2012, 04:52 PM	#42
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,032 Thanks: 1,018 Thanked 3,873 Times in 1,184 Posts	You can try to contact Herbert Werle in Germany. He is currently producing a 45 ACP version as well. His site is www.waffen-werle.de. His English is fine, he used to work as an armorer for the US army in Germany.

02-21-2012, 08:30 PM	#44
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,889 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,281 Times in 423 Posts	Eugene, I know that I am coming in late to this, but here are some thoughts... Do not copy the Aberman Luger, use the specifications for the pistol which was actually used for the Army test. The test pistol has the standard Luger grip angle, the Aberman and Norton guns do not. Make sure the pistol actually functions. Plan on making lots of extra magazines for the people who actually shoot. The price point must be below $5,000--preferably closer to $3,000--for Real People to consider buying. Otherwise you are in the same ballpark as Mike's version, or the new limited-edition Krieghoff--most people who would be capable buyers might rather spend the money on some really nice original Carbine or Fat Barrel, or the like. Frankly, you can find a John Martz conversion cheaper than your price point. --Dwight

02-23-2012, 01:05 AM	#54
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,760 Thanks: 4,848 Thanked 3,099 Times in 1,426 Posts	I have a real slacker here in the leather shop..Know what I tell him every day? Less yakkin-get crackin! __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

07-22-2013, 05:21 AM	#56
lfid Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Wichita, KS USA Posts: 453 Thanks: 573 Thanked 96 Times in 53 Posts	Hi lugerman, how is the 45 gap project going ? Im interested in a 45 gap target custom luger, and could provide the donor luger parts thanks Bill

07-23-2013, 02:04 PM	#58
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,760 Thanks: 4,848 Thanked 3,099 Times in 1,426 Posts	John, yeah..that's the no good slacker I was talking about! __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

07-23-2013, 03:26 PM	#59
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Well don't fire him unless you find a good replacement... good help is hard to find... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

07-23-2013, 09:32 PM	#60
wlyon Lifer 2X Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Somewhere in Montana Posts: 2,614 Thanks: 3,140 Thanked 2,519 Times in 939 Posts	Jerry Please ,please do not fire him until I get all my holsters fixed. Thanks Bill __________________ Bill Lyon