Questions - 1900 commercial?

barr44 · 01-15-2018, 12:39 PM

I have been looking at a 1900 commercial luger for sale, but am not sure as to how original it is. It is the 30 cal. with a 4-1/2" barrel. There are no proof marks on the pistol, but I've read that they were not always proofed. The pistol is a five digit s.n. 16xxx. Some parts are numbered, barrel, receiver, rear toggle, front toggle underside, takedown lever(bottom), and grips. Side plate is not numbered.The gun looks impressive, very clean, bore is excellent, some slight pitting on lft. of muzzle, all straw looks good, bluing is very good. Pistol has a navy magazine with it, which seems to fit nicely. First question are all luger magazines interchangeable? A 1906 vintage magazine won't fit the pistol and it seems to not have a hold open device, is that correct. I have a Brazilian contract pistol which is similar and it will take any luger mag I put in it. I am wondering if there is some internal damage or a part which might have been replaced that could account for the magazine issue and perhaps the hold open problem.
As always, any and all info forth coming is greatly appreciated.
Thanks, barr

Karl · 01-15-2018, 05:04 PM

Barr,

I am not the expert but I can tell you that any Luger magazine should fit into a model 1900. Could the other magazine you tried be damaged? As far as I know, all of the M1900 lugers have the hold open. My 1900 AE does not have proof marks either. Could you have missed the side plate number on the bottom of the side plate? Pictures will help.

KFS

barr44 · 01-15-2018, 08:23 PM

Karl,

I thank you for the info. I don't have the pistol yet, I'm trying to find out more about it. I don't have any luger that early and I haven't found a lot of info on these early lugers. This is the first one that I've seen and handled. There is no number on the side plate, side or bottom. The side plate seems to match the bluing on the rest of the model and makes me think it could have been skipped on some pistols. I have a couple of later commercial lugers and am familiar with the normal s.n. location on the commercials. This one is really different in a lot of respects from any of my lugers, that is why I'm a little confused about it. The condition of the pistol is probably very good as far as the fit and finish. The problem with the magazine
could possibly be due to some damage to one part or another. I wasn't able to remove the left grip and closely examine what was preventing the insertion of a magazine. A different magazine would start to go in perhaps a 1/4 of an inch and then start to bind. The magazine with the pistol goes in but it is a tight fit.
I may have a chance to look the pistol over again in a few days, so maybe I can get some photos of it.
Thanks again for your help.
barr

DonVoigt · 01-15-2018, 08:34 PM

No,
DWM did not "skip" numbering side plates. They had to be fitted to the frame and sear to function; it is one of the more important numbered parts for interchangeability.

Magazine- yes , any magazine should fit. As you surmise there must be something interfering.
Could be some rust or dried grease, or a burr or dent. You can likely see it when you have it in hand and get the grips off.

Do post pictures when you have it.

barr44 · 01-16-2018, 06:53 PM

Thanks Don,
I am on the same page with you and Karl, with the interchangeability of magazines. I've never seen a problem with changing mags among my lugers, but I have never been this close to a model 1900.
I hope to have a chance this weekend to look the pistol over more closely and remove both grips and try and determine what is going on.
Thanks again for the help, and when I find out more I'll let you folks know.
barr

Edward Tinker · 01-16-2018, 07:23 PM

sorry, I disagree on the magazine issue - sometimes some mags will be extra tight and others will work fine. It just depends on the frame.

I would agree that most mags will work fairly well, but I would not say they just work.

As far as I know, 1900's were acceptance marked and proofed, only ones without any markings would be the ones for the time frame of the tests (sn 6000-8000 approx)

Ed

DonVoigt · 01-16-2018, 07:45 PM

How many times to we have to add: "within tolerance"?
Of course a maximum mag in a minimum frame won't go!

That is what "should" means.

Ron Wood · 01-16-2018, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

sorry, I disagree on the magazine issue - sometimes some mags will be extra tight and others will work fine. It just depends on the frame.

I would agree that most mags will work fairly well, but I would not say they just work.

As far as I know, 1900's were acceptance marked and proofed, only ones without any markings would be the ones for the time frame of the tests (sn 6000-8000 approx)

Ed

It seems that acceptance marking and proofing on 1900s are a bit hit or miss. I do not have a lot of examples to cite, but I do know that some early 1900 Lugers have neither acceptance markings or proofs, i.e. I have 1900 AE, # 2136 that has no proofs. I think perhaps that the early commercial pieces that were produced for export were not required by German proof laws to be marked.

barr44 · 01-16-2018, 08:17 PM

Thanks, Ed, Don, and Ron.
I appreciate all of the insights and info available on the forum.
I had read in Keyon's book that not all 1900 commercials were proofed. That's one of the reasons that I was concerned about what this pistol was that I was looking at. I don't believe I ever saw an
original luger that wasn't proofed in some manor. I always thought that most of the German firearms
would be proof marked. All of this is a learning experience for me and I greatly appreciate it.
Thanks to all of you, barr

DonVoigt · 01-16-2018, 08:29 PM

Lugers sold in Europe were proofed; exports did not have to be.
Military contract guns for export were a mix, some with some without proofs.
Of course, with everything luger, there are exceptions.

Mark1 · 01-17-2018, 06:50 PM

Barr,
Have you searched Dwight Gruber's Commercial Database for your No. 16XXX ? There seems to be a fair number of unproofed examples in that area of the database. My own Serial No. 16122 is not proof marked.
Mark

DonVoigt · 01-17-2018, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark1

Barr,
Have you searched Dwight Gruber's Commercial Database for your No. 16XXX ? There seems to be a fair number of unproofed examples in that area of the database. My own Serial No. 16122 is not proof marked.
Mark

Good point, and if Barr would share the entire number, then everyone benefits from another data point.

There is really no reason to obscure a serial number.

Dwight Gruber · 01-18-2018, 03:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

...sometimes some mags will be extra tight and others will work fine. It just depends on the frame...

The problem is more often (not exclusively) that the follower button hangs up on the interior of the grip.

--Dwight

John Sabato · 01-18-2018, 09:53 AM

While the follower button may be hanging up on the inside of the grip as Dwight has suggested, there is another distinct possibility. If the magazine tube is even slightly crushed, warped, or bent it may not enter the frame without strong encouragement, or not at all.

If this is the case, I would recommend you send the offending magazine to G.T., as he has created (machined) perfect mandrels for ironing out the issues (literally).

I received a warped magazine in an ebay transaction about a decade ago, and the seller refused to make good on it. G.T. made that magazine as smooth as it was when it left the factory...and I never have had another problem with it in any Luger.

barr44 · 01-31-2018, 05:24 PM

I appreciate all the good info, that you folks have brought forth. I had a chance to look over said pistol again, but couldn't convince the owner that the pistol had issues. He thinks it's worth more than I did so we parted company. I didn't get the full s.n., but I will probably see it again in a month or so.
I did manage to see another 1900 commercial, that looks almost new and was priced accordingly. That individual had some very nice luger pistols and his prices were probably within reason. Might have to deal with him in the near future. He had several unusual lugers, so if I get a chance I'll try and get more info on them next time I see him.
Thanks again for the all the help!
barr44

George Anderson · 01-31-2018, 08:33 PM

Be careful. There is one scoundrel in Virginia Beach.

01-15-2018, 12:39 PM	#1
barr44 User Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: york co., va Posts: 151 Thanks: 27 Thanked 35 Times in 21 Posts	Questions - 1900 commercial? I have been looking at a 1900 commercial luger for sale, but am not sure as to how original it is. It is the 30 cal. with a 4-1/2" barrel. There are no proof marks on the pistol, but I've read that they were not always proofed. The pistol is a five digit s.n. 16xxx. Some parts are numbered, barrel, receiver, rear toggle, front toggle underside, takedown lever(bottom), and grips. Side plate is not numbered.The gun looks impressive, very clean, bore is excellent, some slight pitting on lft. of muzzle, all straw looks good, bluing is very good. Pistol has a navy magazine with it, which seems to fit nicely. First question are all luger magazines interchangeable? A 1906 vintage magazine won't fit the pistol and it seems to not have a hold open device, is that correct. I have a Brazilian contract pistol which is similar and it will take any luger mag I put in it. I am wondering if there is some internal damage or a part which might have been replaced that could account for the magazine issue and perhaps the hold open problem. As always, any and all info forth coming is greatly appreciated. Thanks, barr

01-15-2018, 08:23 PM	#3
barr44 User Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: york co., va Posts: 151 Thanks: 27 Thanked 35 Times in 21 Posts	1900 luger Karl, I thank you for the info. I don't have the pistol yet, I'm trying to find out more about it. I don't have any luger that early and I haven't found a lot of info on these early lugers. This is the first one that I've seen and handled. There is no number on the side plate, side or bottom. The side plate seems to match the bluing on the rest of the model and makes me think it could have been skipped on some pistols. I have a couple of later commercial lugers and am familiar with the normal s.n. location on the commercials. This one is really different in a lot of respects from any of my lugers, that is why I'm a little confused about it. The condition of the pistol is probably very good as far as the fit and finish. The problem with the magazine could possibly be due to some damage to one part or another. I wasn't able to remove the left grip and closely examine what was preventing the insertion of a magazine. A different magazine would start to go in perhaps a 1/4 of an inch and then start to bind. The magazine with the pistol goes in but it is a tight fit. I may have a chance to look the pistol over again in a few days, so maybe I can get some photos of it. Thanks again for your help. barr

01-15-2018, 08:34 PM	#4
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,677 Thanks: 1,439 Thanked 4,347 Times in 2,038 Posts	No, DWM did not "skip" numbering side plates. They had to be fitted to the frame and sear to function; it is one of the more important numbered parts for interchangeability. Magazine- yes , any magazine should fit. As you surmise there must be something interfering. Could be some rust or dried grease, or a burr or dent. You can likely see it when you have it in hand and get the grips off. Do post pictures when you have it. __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

01-16-2018, 07:45 PM	#7
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,677 Thanks: 1,439 Thanked 4,347 Times in 2,038 Posts	How many times to we have to add: "within tolerance"? Of course a maximum mag in a minimum frame won't go! That is what "should" means. __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

01-16-2018, 08:29 PM	#10
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,677 Thanks: 1,439 Thanked 4,347 Times in 2,038 Posts	Lugers sold in Europe were proofed; exports did not have to be. Military contract guns for export were a mix, some with some without proofs. Of course, with everything luger, there are exceptions. __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

01-15-2018, 05:04 PM	#2
Karl Lifer - Twice Over Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Savannah Posts: 514 Thanks: 0 Thanked 239 Times in 111 Posts	Barr, I am not the expert but I can tell you that any Luger magazine should fit into a model 1900. Could the other magazine you tried be damaged? As far as I know, all of the M1900 lugers have the hold open. My 1900 AE does not have proof marks either. Could you have missed the side plate number on the bottom of the side plate? Pictures will help. KFS

01-16-2018, 06:53 PM	#5
barr44 User Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: york co., va Posts: 151 Thanks: 27 Thanked 35 Times in 21 Posts	Thanks Don, I am on the same page with you and Karl, with the interchangeability of magazines. I've never seen a problem with changing mags among my lugers, but I have never been this close to a model 1900. I hope to have a chance this weekend to look the pistol over more closely and remove both grips and try and determine what is going on. Thanks again for the help, and when I find out more I'll let you folks know. barr

01-16-2018, 07:23 PM	#6
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	sorry, I disagree on the magazine issue - sometimes some mags will be extra tight and others will work fine. It just depends on the frame. I would agree that most mags will work fairly well, but I would not say they just work. As far as I know, 1900's were acceptance marked and proofed, only ones without any markings would be the ones for the time frame of the tests (sn 6000-8000 approx) Ed

01-16-2018, 08:17 PM	#9
barr44 User Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: york co., va Posts: 151 Thanks: 27 Thanked 35 Times in 21 Posts	Thanks, Ed, Don, and Ron. I appreciate all of the insights and info available on the forum. I had read in Keyon's book that not all 1900 commercials were proofed. That's one of the reasons that I was concerned about what this pistol was that I was looking at. I don't believe I ever saw an original luger that wasn't proofed in some manor. I always thought that most of the German firearms would be proof marked. All of this is a learning experience for me and I greatly appreciate it. Thanks to all of you, barr

01-17-2018, 06:50 PM	#11
Mark1 User Join Date: May 2008 Location: New Zealand Posts: 72 Thanks: 332 Thanked 74 Times in 25 Posts	Barr, Have you searched Dwight Gruber's Commercial Database for your No. 16XXX ? There seems to be a fair number of unproofed examples in that area of the database. My own Serial No. 16122 is not proof marked. Mark

01-18-2018, 09:53 AM	#14
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	While the follower button may be hanging up on the inside of the grip as Dwight has suggested, there is another distinct possibility. If the magazine tube is even slightly crushed, warped, or bent it may not enter the frame without strong encouragement, or not at all. If this is the case, I would recommend you send the offending magazine to G.T., as he has created (machined) perfect mandrels for ironing out the issues (literally). I received a warped magazine in an ebay transaction about a decade ago, and the seller refused to make good on it. G.T. made that magazine as smooth as it was when it left the factory...and I never have had another problem with it in any Luger. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

01-31-2018, 05:24 PM	#15
barr44 User Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: york co., va Posts: 151 Thanks: 27 Thanked 35 Times in 21 Posts	1900 Commercial I appreciate all the good info, that you folks have brought forth. I had a chance to look over said pistol again, but couldn't convince the owner that the pistol had issues. He thinks it's worth more than I did so we parted company. I didn't get the full s.n., but I will probably see it again in a month or so. I did manage to see another 1900 commercial, that looks almost new and was priced accordingly. That individual had some very nice luger pistols and his prices were probably within reason. Might have to deal with him in the near future. He had several unusual lugers, so if I get a chance I'll try and get more info on them next time I see him. Thanks again for the all the help! barr44

01-31-2018, 08:33 PM	#16
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,769 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	Be careful. There is one scoundrel in Virginia Beach.