unit marking mystery

[matt ott]

Hello, to forum, i saw yesterday a 1918 DWM P08 with grip strap marking i cannot locate in any Jan Stills books Front strap marked S. P. GNR 30 this gun was captured by russians, has X mark and is black, Thank You in advance for any info. Matt Ott

[Don M]

Matt, this one is a puzzle. Is the marking stamped along the length of the grip strap? If so, does it read from the bottom up as in Prussian markings or from the top down? Are the numbers the same height as the letters or are they about half as tall?

[Ron Smith]

Matt,

If this is a Russian Capture, it may have been issued to the DDR VoPo and could be a VoPo unit mark. It's not any military unit mark that I've seen, but I haven't seen them all.

Ron

[matt ott]

Thank You for the reply and as i recall the marking was read from the bottom up and the number 30 was i think the same size as the S. P. the Gnr might have been lower case, the dealer was asking 1200 for the pistol but i did not think it would bring that, this dealer knows almost nolthing about lugers,, Matt

[Don M]

Ron may be onto something with the idea it may be a VoPo marking. Perhaps someone like George Wheeler with more knowledge of the VoPo will offer an opinion. If it is possible to post a photo of the marking, it may help.

[matt ott]

First let me say im sorry if i caused any confusion because i did not remember the correct markings. this pistol P 08 has a sear safety and blank chamber , serial 4487 DWM toggle and what looks like imperial markings on right upper. black finish with X after serial on left frame, on front grip strap from top down marked vertical S. P. Gn. 30. has no hold open latch, price now 850 so i guess police reworked army in Weimar era??? but captured in WW2?? thank you for any info, Matt Ott

[Ron Wood]

Sicherheits Polizei Gumbinnen (Sp?)?

[Edward Tinker]

I combined everything here.

Please provide pictures, condition, etc. What we know so far is that it is a DWM luger with a possible police marking.

However, that does not drive the price usually, so what is more important is the condition and if original.

The 'x" that everyone calls russian capture is not always present and not a 100% sign it was held by the russians.

It depends on what markings are on the right, whether imperial or weimar markings. But yes, from either imperial or weimar to nazi era, then either held by the east germans and used and sold or captured by the russians and sold. I assume it is import marked?

I think $850 is still a bit high for something like this, but not really high if there aren't force-matched parts?

Ed

[Don M]

Originally Posted by Ron Wood

Sicherheits Polizei Gumbinnen (Sp?)?

Ron's guess may be correct if the pistol was manufactured and issued before March 1920 when the Prussian Sipo markings apparently were standardized. Although a copy of this order has not been found, it probably was consistent with the April 1922 Schupo order that specified markings were to be applied from the bottom up and that the marking for the Gumbinnen district was S.G. (HWIS pp. 56-7). Since there is no holdopen on this gun, it probably is old enough. The Gumbinnen district was captured by the Russians which is consistent with the evidence suggesting use by the DDR.

The fact that it has a sear safety indicates it was in police use in 1934 and probably throughout WWII. This raises the question why an outdated Sipo marking was never brought into conformance with either the 1922 or 1932 marking instructions. This reduces the confidence that it was from Gumbinnen since there are observed examples of updated Schupo markings from this district (HWIS pp. 170-1).

While Sicherheitspolizei Gumbinnen is the most likely id, I would put the probability at about 60-70%.

[matt ott]

i may buy this one as i have no police guns but at 850 plus tax not sure yet, it is all matching but not orig. finnish,, thanks to all. Matt,

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by matt ott

i may buy this one as i have no police guns but at 850 plus tax not sure yet, it is all matching but not orig. finnish,, thanks to all. Matt,

If it's a VoPo refurb, and done as nicely as my RC/VoPo P38, then $850 is not out of line, IMHO...

[Roadkill]

https://www.ecde.org/de/polizei.html

Portugese ? S. P. GNR 30

Polícia de Segurança Pública; PSP) and the Republican National Guard (Guarda Nacional Republicana; GNR)


(This is a German translation of Portugese)

GNR (Guarda Nacional Republicana )

National Republican Guard

Die portugiesische Guarda Nacional Republicana, kurz GNR, ist die Gendarmerie von Portugal.

The Portugese National Guard. abbreviated GNR, is the police force of Portugal

Die Angehörigen der GNR sind Soldaten, im Gegensatz zu den Beamten des Public Security Police (Policia de Segurança Pública, PSP), unterliegt die GNR dem militärischen Recht und militärischer Organisation.

The members of the GNR are soldiers, in contrast to the officials of the Public Security Police, (PSP) and provide the GNR military law and organization.


Die GNR ist verantwortlich für die Ehrengarde und der "Zeremonien der Wachablösung" zu öffentlichen Gebäuden, wie z. B. während der Generalversammlung der Republik, zum Belem-Palast oder zum Palast der Necessidades.

The GNR is responsible for the honor guard and the "Change of Command Ceremony" for public events such as general assemblies at the Belem Palace ot the Plave of the Necessidades.

Auf einer eher pragmatischen Grundlage, ist die GNR verantwortlich für die Strafverfolgung in ländlichen Gebieten und kleinen Städten.

In a more pragmatic sense, the GNR is responsible for the implementation of laws in the rural areas and small towns.

In großen Städten wird die Sicherheit und Strafverfolgung von der PSP wahrgenommen. Die Verkehrspolizei (Trafico) und Steuerfahndung (Fiscal) wird ebenfalls in allen Gebieten durch die GNR abgedeckt.

In the large cities, the security and law enforcement is done by the PSP. The traffic police and taxes handled by the GNR.




PSP ( Polícia de Segurança Pública )

Die Policia de Segurança Pública - PSP (Public Security Police) ist die portugiesische Polizei, die in großen städtischen Gebieten aktiv ist.

The PSP (Public Security Police) are active in the large cities.

Die Dörfer und Regionen stehen unter dem Schutz der GNR.

Small villages and regions are under the protection of the GNR,

[Ron Wood]

Randall,
Haven't heard from you for ages! Matt later corrected the grip strap marking to be "S. P. Gn. 30", so that rules out a Portuguese connection.
Ron

[Roadkill]

Originally Posted by Ron Wood

Randall,
Haven't heard from you for ages! Matt later corrected the grip strap marking to be "S. P. Gn. 30", so that rules out a Portuguese connection.
Ron

You mean I did all that translation for nothing? damn. (good to hear from you too

[George Anderson]

Originally Posted by Roadkill

You mean I did all that translation for nothing? damn. (good to hear from you too

You needed the excercise Roadkill. I sometimes go back and reread Cicero to bone up on my Latin.

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by George Anderson

I sometimes go back and reread Cicero to bone up on my Latin.

Same here...Except I read Dashiell Hammett, Raymond Chandler, and Mickey Spillane...Early Americanese...There were still a lot of terms I was not familiar with...

[Don M]

Originally Posted by matt ott

i may buy this one as i have no police guns but at 850 plus tax not sure yet, it is all matching but not orig. finnish,, thanks to all. Matt,

Matt, if you do buy it, please post a bunch of photos.

[matt ott]

Thanks Don i just ordered your book and hope to learn more about this subject. I went back again to look at this pistol and took my magnifiying glass and took this thing apart and found no sideplate lever and no hold open latch so the price must come way down before i could be really interested, and left side grip has a chip missing at the top,,, the barrell has been changed and says H. Moller with three nazi eagle marks.
so a lession to all,,, bring your glasses and magnifier and be in no hurry to spend your money.. there is one more p08 and all parts gun ,,s 42 toggle , 1940 chamber with all miss match numbers,, mabey 500 shooter i made an offer on both and will see later,, Thanks and looking forward to your book History writ in Steel.. Matt in AZ.

[Don M]

Another of these police markings, S.P.Gn.16, has surfaced on Jan Still's forum: http://luger.gunboards.com/showthread.php?t=27873. It also has a replacement Möller barrel.