Imperial Lugers ?

[raygun]

This should be an easy question for most . But what is the definition of an "Imperial Luger" . from a little research and reading I assume , made before 1918 !?

Are there any exceptions , ie , Dutch and Swiss Lugers ?

Is there any good reason for the differentiation ?

Any idea when the first post Imperial Luger was made and who made it ?

[Ron Wood]

Imperial Lugers are those manufactured between 1898 and 1918 by DWM and Erfurt (the jury is still out on Spandau and probably always will be). The Swiss, Dutch, Russian, Bulgarian, Brazilian, Bolivian, Portuguese and U.S. Test Lugers all qualify as they were made by DWM during this period. I haven't included the "exotics" like Argentina, Serbia, etc. since there is some question about their authenticity.

There is a real good reason...DWM and Erfurt were the original manufacturers...anything after 1918 is a reproduction.

The first post Imperial Luger was manufactured by BKIW.

[alanint]

Ron,

Can you enlighten me on why Spandau made guns would perhaps not qualify?

[Edward Tinker]

Because there are NO Spandau made lugers There are fakes out there and maybe one or two that some experts believe has a real toggle, but Spandau, although they might have repaired lugers on a very limited basis, did not manufacture any.



Also, the "Imperial" era ended in 1918 with the fall of the monarchy, then the Weimar period began (after a few false starts) which lasted until the official take over of Hitler in the early 1930's.


Ed

[raygun]

Originally posted by Ron Wood

There is a real good reason...DWM and Erfurt were the original manufacturers...anything after 1918 is a reproduction.

The first post Imperial Luger was manufactured by BKIW. [/B]

Thanks Ron , I thought that was the case . Didn't BKIW use the same machinery and most likely many of the same technicians as DWM ?

So rather than a mechanical / quality issue , its more of an historical era
difference ?

What sort of toggle stamp if any was used on these "sneak" Lugers ?

[Dwight Gruber]

Chris,

Ron is quite correct with his historically based definition. I will expand on it a bit, and note that in casual conversation collectors often use the phrase to mean specifically Imperial (army) military guns, and will in the same sentence refer to the others as Commercials or name their specific contract variation. It is entirely a matter of context, and who is doing the talking.

In this sense, "Spandau" would be an Imperial variation. These guns' origin, and whether they are a legitimate variation or deliberate forgery, is a different discussion.

BKIW was simply a corporate identity name change for DWM. Except for the letterhead everything remained the same.

Finish quality is usually characteristic of manufacture, and differences can be identified beteween commercial and military production, and different manufacturers. Some of these features tend to follow historical patterns, but are discriptive rather than determinative.

The variation known as a "Sneak" is coming to be understood rather differently from the historical assumption from which the name is derived, and many collectors are eliminating it from their lexicon. The predominate feature of these guns is the absence of a toggle mark.

--Dwight

[Ron Wood]

Chris,
You are correct, BKIW was essentially DWM with a new name, so the real change is the end of one era and the beginning of another.

BKIW continued the use of the DWM toggle marking (even Mauser and Krieghoff used some DWM marked toggles).

There was nothing â??sneakâ?� about initial BKIW production. The Lugers produced are what we call â??1920 Commercialsâ?� and the guns permitted under the treaty of Versailles for military and police use. The so-called â??sneakâ?� Lugers were later production ca. 1929 or so. Joop van de Kant is doing some research that suggests these sneak Lugers were taken, at least in part, from the aborted Riff contract that were prohibited from delivery by the German government and later sold to the Reichswehr in the early â??30s.

P.S. I was a little slow in my reply so I apologize for any redundancy with what Dwight posted !

[Lugerdoc]

Ron is technically correct re the Imperial German government, but I'd agree with Dwight's more narrow definition that most folks mean Imperial "Mitiary" when using this term. I've never heard a collector refer to M1900s, 1906s, contracts or commericals as "Imperial Lugers". TH

[Ron Wood]

I've never heard a collector refer to M1900s, 1906s, contracts or commericals as "Imperial Lugers".

Now you have ! The difference here is that I use the term "Imperial era" in my taxonomy of Luger variations. I would not disagree with then breaking out sub-categories of "Imperial military", "Imperial commercial" and "Imperial contract". I agree that the vernacular connotation of "Imperial Luger" generally implies the military version to most folks, but I liken that to calling all tissues "Kleenex" (or for the British, calling all vacuum cleaners "Hoovers"). I am kind of the reverse of the connotation by "most folks" in that I tend to equate the term "Imperial Luger" with Imperial era Lugers. Guess I never have quite fit in .

[Ron Smith]

Ron,

Next I suppose you're going to tell me that my couch isn't a "Davenport" and my refridgerator isn't a "Fridgidaire".

[alvin]

I have one question regarding Imperial Long barrel Lugers (Artillery, Navy). Were they supposed to have their barrels shortened to 99m/m after the Great War..... Why didn't we see many of those today? On the contrary, I have never seen one. How did so many long barrel Lugers survive?

[raygun]

Originally posted by alvin
I have one question regarding Imperial Long barrel Lugers (Artillery, Navy). Were they supposed to have their barrels shortened to 99m/m after the Great War..... Why didn't we see many of those today? On the contrary, I have never seen one. How did so many long barrel Lugers survive?

Alvin , I guess the main reason so many Artillery, and too a much lesser extent, Navy Lugers survive is because they were such a prized souveneer and many came back with our servicemen.

If they were required to be shortened in Germany after the war, then they may be rare in their country of origin.

Come to think of it we don't seem to have any German collectors on the forum , but perhaps they have their own?

If you look carefully at my Avatar you will notice that it is an artillery luger with a shortened barrel . I'm surprised no one has commented on this.

This was done in the 1970's here , when the only reason you could own a pistol was for target shooting, and as the Luger was quite accurate, it was often put to that purpose. But the barrel was bit too long and unweildy for regular target shooting, so they were shortened.

Much to our shock and horror today of course !!

[alvin]

Thanks for the reply. It's shame on me -- I acquired a copy of "Weimar Lugers" for a while, but I have not gotten time to read it yet (!). There are some shorten barrel Artillery and Navy reworked in various kinds of ways in the book.

[George Anderson]

The Treaty of Versailles placed no restrictions on Germany regarding pistol barrel length. The only treaty restrictions on pistols was the prohibition of the export of military calibre pistols and other military small arms and the limiting of newly manufactured military pistols to a level comensurate with the needs of the one hundred thousand man army.

The reason we see so many shortened LP08's and P04's is that the Weimar government and Reichswehr had to deal with what they had. One of the Weimar governments most successful programs to circumvent the limit on the size of the army was to raise an enormous national police force. These police served extensively as border security in the East and were, in fact, a paramilitary force. The long barrel pistols were seen as cumbersome and obsolete in the new era and were cut down to standard pistol length.

Despite the cut-downs many long barrels were retained in service and saw use even in the second war.

[alvin]

I was surprised that barrel length was not 'by-law'.... I believe you're right and my concept on this issue was wrong from the beginning. Thanks.

[Vlim]

Hi,

Add to that the relative ease with which the German army managed to hide vast supplies of guns from the allied control commission during the 1920s. Many LP08's were simply put in storage and were redistributed amongst forces during the 1930s.

If I remember correctly, the Treaty limitations were backed by additional German law that actually prohibited certain calibre/barrel lenght combinations from being used, produced and sold. I think that is where the confusion started.

[Alx]

I have what I believe is a Wiemar Luger with Versailles mandated factory shortened barrel .... DWM 1917 / 1920 DWM # 6944i with the artillery chamber-top notch, but matching numbered 4" (actually 3-7/8" from chamber face) barrel which does not carry the subscript but has a definite dot after the 6944. The blue looks original to me, but the barrel number has a faintly buffed look to it at the number, where the top of the six is gone, cratering very faint, and no halo. If this is a contentious or controversial ID, photos can be posted, but it seems pretty straightforward to me.

Is there any particular significance to the stamped dot ?