Norinco 9mm

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by jonnyc

Way too cold today for anything more scientific, but here are the results of my limited testing:

PRC 124 grain in an Argentine Hi-Power (20 rounds):
Hi 1184 fps
Low 1128 fps
Avg 1161 fps

Rem. 115 grain in an Argentine Hi-Power (10 rounds):
Hi 1122 fps
Low1079 fps
Avg 1097 fps

WWB 115 grain in a 1940 Luger (8 rounds):
Hi 1158 fps
Low 1085 fps
Avg 1127 fps

"In addition, a correct reading of the attached thread about the exploding Arty. Luger clearly indicates a poor "gunsmithing" job and not an ammunition problem."

I really can't agree with your conclusion here, but people often reach different conclusions given the same or simmilar facts.

"I will continue to use WWB in my Lugers, as they function 100%with that, but I would not hesitate to use the PRC 124 grain FMJ in any of my 9mm pistols."

It's your Luger, not mine.

Dear JonnyC:

Santa brought me a new chronograph for Christmas, so when I'm in Florida next month, I'll try to confirm your findings. I am shooting the Norinco Red box, you didn't mention just what you were shooting above, as there may be substantial differences in the different types of ammo manufactured by Norinco.

What I did experience with the Norinco Red Box was severe breech-block slap. This is when the rear of the breech-block, where the firing pin retainer is, slaps against the rear frame of the Luger. The slap was quite severe in that it made a deep impression on the surface of the frame (breech-block is hardened, frame is soft). The pistol practically jumped out of my hand!

Breech-block slap is among the main reasons for Luger mechanical failure. None of the American made 9mm I've used in the past ever did this! After the first magazine, I retired the red box to my gun room for use in one of my other 9mm pistols.

It's noon here and only 19 degrees. This is about 10 degrees cooler than normal.

Sieger

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by Vlim

Just for completeness sake, here is an interesting box of Geco 9x19 para from the 1980s. It was custom loaded for former NWM manager Henk Visser's personal use.

The V on the overlabel is given as 280 m/s, which is quite mild for P08 standards, as the commercial Geco is already a pretty mild round.

And some scans from a 1953 DDR manual on pistol and rifle rounds with v for the WW2 ammunition they were still using those days.

Dear Vlim:

Thank you for your contribution.

Around 320 m/sec, out of a 100mm (4 inch) barrel, seems to be the normal German Army load I've also been able to identify (see above post).

I hope you are having better weather than my friends in Berlin are having!!

Thanks again!

Sieger

[jonnyc]

As I said previously, I had the exact same ammo, box and headstamp, as the OP. That's what was asked about...that's what I discussed...that's what I tested.

[Aaron]

I think there is some confusion here. Norinco ammo is safe to use, Russian ammo is too hot.

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by Aaron

I think there is some confusion here. Norinco ammo is safe to use, Russian ammo is too hot.

Aaron:

I've never tried any of the Russian stuff because most of it is steel cased.

Sieger

[Mauser George]

Seiger:

First and foremost, why are you addressing me as Dear? I take it you have a situation with Men?

Second, all you do my friend is make me laugh as there is nothing you could possibly say or do that would damper my day!

Third, find someone else to argue with. You are in your own little world, so please stay there.

George

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by Mauser George

Seiger:

First and foremost, why are you addressing me as Dear? I take it you have a situation with Men?

George

Dear George:

Your low-rent comment speaks for itself.

I'm still waiting, calmly, for that 1,400 fps, 124 grain German Army load from you.

Sieger

XOXOXO

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by jonnyc

As I said previously, I had the exact same ammo, box and headstamp, as the OP. That's what was asked about...that's what I discussed...that's what I tested.

Dear JonnyC:

I found an interesting post on the net today that might shed some light on both of our positions.

"If it has just NORINCO 9mm on the headstamp, then it is Commercial Norinco and the brass will be on the thin side for reloading. If it has the triangle on the headstamp, then it is Military Spec Norinco ammunition."

and

"We tested some several years ago...Results +P from a G19."

It looks like there are at least two different types of Norinco 9mm out there. I can't remember which head stamp mine has, but I did buy it, off of the net, within the last three years or so.

Exactly what is on your types' case head?


Sieger

[jonnyc]

Asked and answered...twice.

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by Sieger

"If it has just NORINCO 9mm on the headstamp, then it is Commercial Norinco and the brass will be on the thin side for reloading. If it has the triangle on the headstamp, then it is Military Spec Norinco ammunition."

Do you have a pic of the "Norinco" on the headstamp??? That's a lot of letters to get on a 9mm cartridge head...with the 9mm letters/number as well...

What is this "red box" Norinco ammunition??? Test ammo???

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by postino

Do you have a pic of the "Norinco" on the headstamp??? That's a lot of letters to get on a 9mm cartridge head...with the 9mm letters/number as well...

What is this "red box" Norinco ammunition??? Test ammo???

Dear Postino:

I'm not an expert on Chinese types of ammo, as I had such a bad experience with the ammo I tried that I was totally turned off by it. The quote from the net above has not been verified by me, rather, it was a passing comment of a poster from 2006.

Go to the Gunbroker.com site and search Norinco 9mm. What should come up is what I purchased off of this site about three years ago. It packaged in either a darker red box or a light blue box. As stated above, I really don't remember the head stamp on the ammo, but it was loaded in very light, thin cases.

This is the red hot stuff I'm referring to. This is what is commonly available for purchase today. This is the stuff that caused severe breech-block slap in my byf 41.

No, it's not test ammo, or it is not marked as such.

I hope that answered your queston.

Sieger

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by jonnyc

Asked and answered...twice.

Dear JonnyC:

Thanks for the verification.

Sieger

[Vlim]

After some additional reading I expect that the 1400fps story is probably based on the higher muzzle velocity of the SE (Sintered Iron) and mE (iron core) P08 rounds from the WW2 era. Because of their lighter bullet, combined with an unchanged powder charge, the SE especially developed a muzzle speed that exceeded the standard 320m/s (1049) quite a bit.

A test velocity given for the SE round was 395m/s which is some 1295 fps.

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by Vlim

After some additional reading I expect that the 1400fps story is probably based on the higher muzzle velocity of the SE (Sintered Iron) and mE (iron core) P08 rounds from the WW2 era. Because of their lighter bullet, combined with an unchanged powder charge, the SE especially developed a muzzle speed that exceeded the standard 320m/s (1049) quite a bit.

A test velocity given for the SE round was 395m/s which is some 1295 fps.

Dear Vlim:

Yes, these were very light bullets! Also, they distroyed a barrel very quickly.

Would you happen to know the exact weight of these SE bullets?

Sieger

[Vlim]

Well, the barrel certainly is clean afterwards

Walter gives the following weights:
6.42 grams for the mE (99gr)
5.87 grams (90.6gr) for the SE).

The standard weight was 8 grams (123.5gr).

I can measure the exact weight differences if needed. Have enough reference specimens (just no loose bullets) over here.

[sheepherder]

I searched my junk cartridges box looking for that other 9mm brass-bulleted cartridge; couldn't find it...but I did find two 7.65mm Luger cartridges (pretty cruddy until cleaned up) with unusual (to me) looking bullets...(copper???)...

Headstamp says -

DWM
K K
471

And the primer looks to be brass...

[FNorm]

If I remember correctly it was forum member, Alx who had the cracking problem.

FN

[Vlim]

Postino,

The photo is a bit small, but they are a nice pair of commercial DWM Karlsruhe made 7.65 Para rounds. Bullets can be nickle plated, usually with a steel jacket underneath. Brass primers are pretty much the standard on DWM rounds. 471 is the DWM model number.

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by Vlim

Postino,

The photo is a bit small, but they are a nice pair of commercial DWM Karlsruhe made 7.65 Para rounds. Bullets can be nickle plated, usually with a steel jacket underneath. Brass primers are pretty much the standard on DWM rounds. 471 is the DWM model number.

Thank You!

I couldn't get my digi-cam to focus that small; so I scanned them...I try to keep a sample of all calibers for reference; I found out the hard way that most reference books have misprints...Not what you want when you're reloading...

Lemme see if I can get the other camera to focus that small...Here we go...BTW: they're unfired...What looks like a firing pin dent is the machining (or polishing?) marks on the primer...

[Vlim]

I usually use the scanner for the pistol rounds as well. Just select a slightly higher resolution (300 - 600dpi should work well).