Blue Dot load? - Page 2

Sieger · 09-29-2007, 02:58 PM

Dear Tac:

I gave the appropriate reference, the War of 1812, and the appropriate campaign. Try reading the American history of the war, as historical accounts often differ.

As to your other remarks, I have no comment.

Sieger

TzDreamer · 09-29-2007, 02:59 PM

Oh yes just to piss everyone off equally, tea is best in a bag and served over ice!

Heinz · 09-29-2007, 04:38 PM

Here is a lead in to the appropriate references. I have some more information if anyone cares to private email me.
Legend has it that two sharpshooters, Daniel Wells and Henry McComas, made Ross their target. Whether they actually fired the shots will never be known. The boys fell almost immediately to British bullets. A monument immortalizes their valiantry. Carried to the rear, Ross died a few hours later.
http://www.bcplonline.org/info/histo...cohistory.html (Baltimore County Public Library

I would note that there is significant dispute as to who fired the shot and no reliable contemporary estimates of the distance that I have been able to find. Apparently the British reurn fire was as effective as the Americans.

Sieger · 09-29-2007, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Heinz
I would note that there is significant dispute as to who fired the shot and no reliable contemporary estimates of the distance that I have been able to find. Apparently the British reurn fire was as effective as the Americans.

Heinz:

Thank you for bringing some kindness to this discussion.

The next time you visit Baltimore, you might take a minute and stop by the municipal museum for some more details of this action. There is also a statue commemorating the action. The site you were kind enough to give us is a good summary, but does lack some detail.

The death of their General so demoralized and confused the British that they stoped their advance on the city, quite a prize lost.

Sieger

Heinz · 09-30-2007, 07:53 AM

Thanks Sieger. I have been to that museum and it is a treasure. I am still awestruck by the original copy of Francis Scott Key's Star Spangled Banner that was hanging unobstrusively on the wall. However I shall go again to check out Wells and McComas when next in Baltimore.

I have been shooting and building flintlock rifles for 41 years and what they are capable of is pretty amazing.

PS we are all friends here although we may get a bit passionate

Sieger · 09-30-2007, 12:57 PM

Dear Heinz:

I use the word "friend" sparingly. Perhaps the phrase "casual acquaintance" is more appropriate when discussing some.

I'm glad that someone with over 40 years of experience with building rifles from that period responded. You know, now days it seems like "everyone is an expert" on subjects that they know little or nothing about. For instance, I've been reloading and experimenting with the 9mm Luger for almost 30 years. I doubt, seriously, if some that have commented on the accuracy of the 9mm Luger have ever loaded an single cartridge for it.

I grew up in the Baltimore-Washington area, and had the pleasure of working in both cities on a professional basis. This area and the Commonwealth of Virginia, offer a wealth of colonial history to explore. My family received a land patent from the Commonwealth, for service in the Colonial Army, of 1,000 acres. I still have the original deed to the land.

Thanks again.

Sieger

JD · 10-01-2007, 04:05 PM

Sieger,

I still remember my first encounter with shooting a luger (Back in the days when I had better eye sight...). A police officer friend that I shot with brought a luger to the range, along with his usual collection fo nice handguns. I knew nothing of lugers at that time, and I don't remember what exactly this one was, except that it was German military in about 85% condition and with a perfect bore. He handed me the gun and said "Here, try this." After a couple of magazines of ammo to get used to the trigger pull, he told me to try shooting at a 1" square black paster on his target at 25 yards. I put 5 rounds into that paster, with no round more than half off the paster. I was amazed. We spent the next hour in informal competition shooting at black 1" pasters at 25 yards (From a sandbag rest.), with almost all of the groups running at an inch or less. I had a great bit of fun with the luger that day... and it really opened my eyes too.

My friend would also occasionally shoot his department's quailification course with the luger just for fun, and he cleaned the course each time....

Ah, the good old days........

Sieger · 10-01-2007, 10:33 PM

JD:

Lugers will shoot with the right loads and springs!!!

Sieger

shadow · 11-18-2007, 10:52 PM

JD,

Thanks for sharing your load data. I have be working up a load for my luger and I think I have a winner when trying to duplictae one of your loads. I tried 8.0 gr Blue Dot, CCI small Pistol Primer, Sierra match grade 115 FMJ, in a Remington case. The OAL varried between 1.160 and 1.170 OAL on these loads. I have since tightened the OAL up to +/- 0.002.

This is 8 rounds benched at about 20 paced yards.

Chris

JD · 11-20-2007, 10:59 PM

Shadow,

Very nice group!!!! It is surprising how well lugers can shoot with ammo they like.

Good shooting!!!!!

Sieger · 11-22-2007, 01:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by JD
Shadow,

Very nice group!!!! It is surprising how well lugers can shoot with ammo they like.

Good shooting!!!!!

Hi:

Yes, this is a typical group with a well designed load!

The Lugers are extremely accurate, when properly loaded.

Sieger

PS: I'll be trying out his load on my next trip to the range.

Gunner220 · 02-21-2008, 04:32 PM

Just a couple of observations about Blue Dot. It is a temperature sensitive powder in that loads developed in cold weather will operate at higher pressures in the heat of summer. This based on case/primer observations and just the feel of the load. Not very scientific I know but I have 30 years of reloading experience to go along with it.

Blue Dot also has one hell of a report and flash when nearing a max load in the 9.

I also use Blue Dot in the .357 and 44 mags, as well as the 45 ACP. Accuracy in all the above calibers was excellent.

With all that being said my most frequently used 9mm load is 6 grains of Unique over anything weighing 115 grains.

By the way Shadow that is some serious shooting!

Sieger · 02-21-2008, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gunner220
With all that being said my most frequently used 9mm load is 6 grains of Unique over anything weighing 115 grains.

Hi:

This is a little on the hot side.

How accurate is this load?

Sieger

Gunner220 · 02-21-2008, 08:45 PM

That load is quite accurate putting full magazines from a Glock 17 with a Bar Sto barrel into 2 inches offhand at 50 feet. It shoots equally well in a Sig 228. I've had the powder charge as high as 6.5 of Unique which was worked up to and falls within the parameters of some of my reloading manuals.

I have not run this load through a Luger {still new to the gun!} but plan to next time I'm out. The cases give no indication of pressure in my particular guns.

Rod WMG · 02-23-2008, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gunner220
Just a couple of observations about Blue Dot. It is a temperature sensitive powder in that loads developed in cold weather will operate at higher pressures in the heat of summer. This based on case/primer observations and just the feel of the load. Not very scientific I know but I have 30 years of reloading experience to go along with it....

I've stayed out of this discussion so far since I've never loaded anything with Blue Dot. The reason is that a ladies champion shooter's husband owned a gunshop in OKC back in the 1970's when I lived in the area. He stated that he loaded her .357 ammo with Blue Dot in the winter, but switched off as the weather warmed due to pressure problems. I figured I didn't want to take a chance. And it did get really hot in Oklahoma.

The Virginian · 12-08-2008, 12:35 PM

If you are looking at who were the better long range marksmen on the battlefield in WWI, that honor goes to the US Marines attached to the AEF in Belleau Wood in 1917. The French in their usual fashion wanted to fall back as they sighted the Germans at 1500 yards advancing. The US Marine Col., when asked if they would follow the retreat said "Retreat, hell we just got here!" Shortly thereafter US Marines armed exclusivley with 1903 Springfield rifles were taking out Huns at 700 and even 850 yards which effectively stopped the German advance in short order. The French and British observers were stunned to say the least as it was thought that this distance was far beyond the effective range of any rifle. The British were said to have the best "Battle Rifle", the Germans had the best "Hunting Rifle" and the Americans had the best "Target Rifle." Hitting the target is the name of the game in war.

Sieger · 12-08-2008, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Virginian

If you are looking at who were the better long range marksmen on the battlefield in WWI, that honor goes to the US Marines attached to the AEF in Belleau Wood in 1917. The French in their usual fashion wanted to fall back as they sighted the Germans at 1500 yards advancing. The US Marine Col., when asked if they would follow the retreat said "Retreat, hell we just got here!" Shortly thereafter US Marines armed exclusivley with 1903 Springfield rifles were taking out Huns at 700 and even 850 yards which effectively stopped the German advance in short order. The French and British observers were stunned to say the least as it was thought that this distance was far beyond the effective range of any rifle. The British were said to have the best "Battle Rifle", the Germans had the best "Hunting Rifle" and the Americans had the best "Target Rifle." Hitting the target is the name of the game in war.

Hi:

Belleau must not have been much of a "woods" if you could get a straight shot at 700 to 850 yards at a moving target.

My father qualified as an "Expert Rifleman", at 1,000 yards, in 1943 with an "as issued" M-1. He was in the Infantry, later Airborne.

Sieger

The Virginian · 12-09-2008, 01:43 AM

It was the name of a French game preserve that had both woods and open field. German artillery opened it up even more and the allies knew they would follow with an infantry assault. The Germans thought they could advance from such a distance unmolested in the open...they figured wrong and paid the price with heavy casualties. The M1 Garand was and still is a great semi-auto heavy battle rifle that could be very accurate at long range.

Sieger · 12-09-2008, 04:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sieger

Hi:

Belleau must not have been much of a "woods" if you could get a straight shot at 700 to 850 yards at a moving target.

My father qualified as an "Expert Rifleman", at 1,000 yards, in 1943 with an "as issued" M-1. He was in the Infantry, later Airborne.

Sieger

I wonder just what was wrong with a night assalt?

Just how many months was the U.S. involved in WWI in the first place?

Sieger

The Virginian · 12-09-2008, 11:56 AM

No night vision and in WWI lots of friendly fire occured on both sides at night. Night time was also hazardous because it was a favorite time for both sides to use artillery. The US was involved for about 18 months in WWI.

11-18-2007, 10:52 PM	#29
shadow User Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Down The Shore Posts: 245 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	JD, Thanks for sharing your load data. I have be working up a load for my luger and I think I have a winner when trying to duplictae one of your loads. I tried 8.0 gr Blue Dot, CCI small Pistol Primer, Sierra match grade 115 FMJ, in a Remington case. The OAL varried between 1.160 and 1.170 OAL on these loads. I have since tightened the OAL up to +/- 0.002. This is 8 rounds benched at about 20 paced yards. Chris __________________ The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good. George Washington

12-08-2008, 12:35 PM	#36
The Virginian User Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Potomac Falls, Virginia USA Posts: 107 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	If you are looking at who were the better long range marksmen on the battlefield in WWI, that honor goes to the US Marines attached to the AEF in Belleau Wood in 1917. The French in their usual fashion wanted to fall back as they sighted the Germans at 1500 yards advancing. The US Marine Col., when asked if they would follow the retreat said "Retreat, hell we just got here!" Shortly thereafter US Marines armed exclusivley with 1903 Springfield rifles were taking out Huns at 700 and even 850 yards which effectively stopped the German advance in short order. The French and British observers were stunned to say the least as it was thought that this distance was far beyond the effective range of any rifle. The British were said to have the best "Battle Rifle", the Germans had the best "Hunting Rifle" and the Americans had the best "Target Rifle." Hitting the target is the name of the game in war. __________________ All my C&R guns are shooters

12-09-2008, 01:43 AM	#38
The Virginian User Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Potomac Falls, Virginia USA Posts: 107 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	It was the name of a French game preserve that had both woods and open field. German artillery opened it up even more and the allies knew they would follow with an infantry assault. The Germans thought they could advance from such a distance unmolested in the open...they figured wrong and paid the price with heavy casualties. The M1 Garand was and still is a great semi-auto heavy battle rifle that could be very accurate at long range. __________________ All my C&R guns are shooters

12-09-2008, 11:56 AM	#40
The Virginian User Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Potomac Falls, Virginia USA Posts: 107 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	No night vision and in WWI lots of friendly fire occured on both sides at night. Night time was also hazardous because it was a favorite time for both sides to use artillery. The US was involved for about 18 months in WWI. __________________ All my C&R guns are shooters

09-29-2007, 02:58 PM	#21
Sieger User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,575 Thanks: 2,124 Thanked 400 Times in 249 Posts	Dear Tac: I gave the appropriate reference, the War of 1812, and the appropriate campaign. Try reading the American history of the war, as historical accounts often differ. As to your other remarks, I have no comment. Sieger

09-29-2007, 02:59 PM	#22
TzDreamer User Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Wichita Falls Texas USA Posts: 28 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Oh yes just to piss everyone off equally, tea is best in a bag and served over ice!

09-29-2007, 04:38 PM	#23
Heinz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Greenville SC Posts: 1,004 Thanks: 377 Thanked 410 Times in 180 Posts	Here is a lead in to the appropriate references. I have some more information if anyone cares to private email me. Legend has it that two sharpshooters, Daniel Wells and Henry McComas, made Ross their target. Whether they actually fired the shots will never be known. The boys fell almost immediately to British bullets. A monument immortalizes their valiantry. Carried to the rear, Ross died a few hours later. http://www.bcplonline.org/info/histo...cohistory.html (Baltimore County Public Library I would note that there is significant dispute as to who fired the shot and no reliable contemporary estimates of the distance that I have been able to find. Apparently the British reurn fire was as effective as the Americans.

09-30-2007, 07:53 AM	#25
Heinz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Greenville SC Posts: 1,004 Thanks: 377 Thanked 410 Times in 180 Posts	Thanks Sieger. I have been to that museum and it is a treasure. I am still awestruck by the original copy of Francis Scott Key's Star Spangled Banner that was hanging unobstrusively on the wall. However I shall go again to check out Wells and McComas when next in Baltimore. I have been shooting and building flintlock rifles for 41 years and what they are capable of is pretty amazing. PS we are all friends here although we may get a bit passionate

09-30-2007, 12:57 PM	#26
Sieger User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,575 Thanks: 2,124 Thanked 400 Times in 249 Posts	Dear Heinz: I use the word "friend" sparingly. Perhaps the phrase "casual acquaintance" is more appropriate when discussing some. I'm glad that someone with over 40 years of experience with building rifles from that period responded. You know, now days it seems like "everyone is an expert" on subjects that they know little or nothing about. For instance, I've been reloading and experimenting with the 9mm Luger for almost 30 years. I doubt, seriously, if some that have commented on the accuracy of the 9mm Luger have ever loaded an single cartridge for it. I grew up in the Baltimore-Washington area, and had the pleasure of working in both cities on a professional basis. This area and the Commonwealth of Virginia, offer a wealth of colonial history to explore. My family received a land patent from the Commonwealth, for service in the Colonial Army, of 1,000 acres. I still have the original deed to the land. Thanks again. Sieger

10-01-2007, 04:05 PM	#27
JD User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Western Washington Posts: 107 Thanks: 58 Thanked 22 Times in 17 Posts	Sieger, I still remember my first encounter with shooting a luger (Back in the days when I had better eye sight...). A police officer friend that I shot with brought a luger to the range, along with his usual collection fo nice handguns. I knew nothing of lugers at that time, and I don't remember what exactly this one was, except that it was German military in about 85% condition and with a perfect bore. He handed me the gun and said "Here, try this." After a couple of magazines of ammo to get used to the trigger pull, he told me to try shooting at a 1" square black paster on his target at 25 yards. I put 5 rounds into that paster, with no round more than half off the paster. I was amazed. We spent the next hour in informal competition shooting at black 1" pasters at 25 yards (From a sandbag rest.), with almost all of the groups running at an inch or less. I had a great bit of fun with the luger that day... and it really opened my eyes too. My friend would also occasionally shoot his department's quailification course with the luger just for fun, and he cleaned the course each time.... Ah, the good old days........

10-01-2007, 10:33 PM	#28
Sieger User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,575 Thanks: 2,124 Thanked 400 Times in 249 Posts	JD: Lugers will shoot with the right loads and springs!!! Sieger

11-20-2007, 10:59 PM	#30
JD User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Western Washington Posts: 107 Thanks: 58 Thanked 22 Times in 17 Posts	Shadow, Very nice group!!!! It is surprising how well lugers can shoot with ammo they like. Good shooting!!!!!

02-21-2008, 04:32 PM	#32
Gunner220 User Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Just a couple of observations about Blue Dot. It is a temperature sensitive powder in that loads developed in cold weather will operate at higher pressures in the heat of summer. This based on case/primer observations and just the feel of the load. Not very scientific I know but I have 30 years of reloading experience to go along with it. Blue Dot also has one hell of a report and flash when nearing a max load in the 9. I also use Blue Dot in the .357 and 44 mags, as well as the 45 ACP. Accuracy in all the above calibers was excellent. With all that being said my most frequently used 9mm load is 6 grains of Unique over anything weighing 115 grains. By the way Shadow that is some serious shooting!

02-21-2008, 08:45 PM	#34
Gunner220 User Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	That load is quite accurate putting full magazines from a Glock 17 with a Bar Sto barrel into 2 inches offhand at 50 feet. It shoots equally well in a Sig 228. I've had the powder charge as high as 6.5 of Unique which was worked up to and falls within the parameters of some of my reloading manuals. I have not run this load through a Luger {still new to the gun!} but plan to next time I'm out. The cases give no indication of pressure in my particular guns.