Perfect Luger ammo

Roadkill · 10-16-2003, 01:35 PM

Been out shooting again, reached into my ammo stash and threw in a couple of boxes of VKT 1964 Finnish 9mm I got from Sportsmanguide a few years ago, loaded it into my 1918 shooter, and was it amazing. That gun acted like my ugly dog when I dropped a chicken leg off the grill. SNAP! It was gone. Accuracy was very good and the functioning was perfect. Granted, having Thor restore it had a lot to do with it, but I'd sure like to have another 1,000 or so rounds of that. Anybody know where any can be had?

rk

Lonnie Zimmerman · 10-16-2003, 02:01 PM

Roadkill, saw some Finnish 9mm for sale in the last few Shotgun News, but don"t know if it was the right stuff.
Lonnie

Roadkill · 10-16-2003, 02:10 PM

Thanks Lonnie, if its not too much trouble, can you provide a point of contact?

rk

Herb · 10-16-2003, 03:26 PM

RK, some Finnish ammo here
http://www.samcoglobal.com/ammo.html

Roadkill · 10-16-2003, 03:36 PM

Herb, I'll once again exhibit my ignorance, but which one of those is for a 9mm Luger?

rk

Doubs · 10-16-2003, 03:52 PM

RK, the only Luger ammo on that page is the first item; the .30 Luger cartridges which is not what you're looking for I don't think. The 9mm Browning Long has a longer case than the 9mm Luger and is a weaker cartridge.

Lonnie Zimmerman · 10-16-2003, 05:16 PM

Roadkill; Doubs is right, the 9mm Finnish is no longer for sale. It has been in the last few months, and if it shows up again I will contact you. Sorry!

Herb · 10-16-2003, 06:58 PM

Doubs, I think that the 9mm long is the regular 9mm round opposed to the 9mm short which is what we call the .380 ammo. The Germans call it 9mm Kurz. Before ordering anything an email to them might be in order.

Heinz · 10-16-2003, 07:32 PM

There is a 9mm long or 9mm Largo. Not to be confused with the 9mm parabellum. I can't remember what was chamberd for it.

Edward Tinker · 10-16-2003, 08:58 PM

Some Astra's, and other guns...

Doubs · 10-16-2003, 11:50 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Herb:
Doubs, I think that the 9mm long is the regular 9mm round opposed to the 9mm short which is what we call the .380 ammo. The Germans call it 9mm Kurz. Before ordering anything an email to them might be in order.<hr /></blockquote>Herb, while I don't have a copy of "Cartridges of the World", in "Handguns of the World" the 9mm Browning Long is listed as having a 20mm straight-walled semi-rimmed case. Hatcher's book "Pistols and Revolvers", published in 1927, shows the cartridge firing a 110 grain bullet at 1100 FPS and having 300 FtLbs of energy. It's not quite up to Parabellum strength. It hasn't been loaded in the US in many years I don't believe.

BYF-42 · 10-18-2003, 10:50 AM

Gentlemen,

Below is a list of cartridges that all are designated "9mm". Chances are that there are many other 9mm cartridges, these are just the ones that IÃ¢??m familiar withÃ¢?Â¦

9mm Kurz also known as... 380 ACP (Automatic Colt Pistol), (9mm Browning Short), (9mm Corto)
9mm Makarov (9x18 PM)
9mm Makarov Modif. (9x18 PMM)
9mm Parabellum (Luger), (9x19)
9mm SP-10 (9x21 Russian)
9mm Steyr (9x23) loaded down from largo and the case has differing dimensions.
9mm Largo (9x23), (Spanish)
9mm (9x23) Winchester Very close to 9mm Largo dimensions, but loaded to higher pressures (not interchangeable).
The cartridges below are generally accepted as being interchangeable with the 9mm Largo.
9mm Bayard Long (9x23)
9mm Astra M. 1921
9mm BERGMANN 1910/21
9mm DANISCHE PISTOLEN PATRONE
9mm STAR SELBSTLADE-PISTOLE
9mm BAYARD
9mm BAYARD ARMEE PISTOL
9mm BERGMANN "MARS" no. 6
9mm no. 6 BERGMANN
9mm MARS
9mm STAR AUTO-PISTOL
9mm BERGMANN-BAYARD

Dwight Gruber · 10-18-2003, 01:34 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by BYF-42:
The cartridges below are generally accepted as being interchangeable with the 9mm Largo.
<hr /></blockquote>I'd be a bit careful here for actual shooting use. Conventional wisdom has it that the Astra 400 (9mm Largo) is able to chamber and fire a number of different straight-case 9mm rounds, including even 9mm Parabellum! It can do this because the gun is -way- overbuilt and has a very hefty extractor. I've tried this with 9mm Parabellum, it works, but there is an awful lot of gas and powder blowback into the chamber between the cartridge and chamber wall, and long-term use of ammo with cases shorter than the 9mm Largo will eventually wear away the front of the chamber and destroy its headspace.

Although these other cartridges may be aproximately interchangeable, I've never heard that other guns will safely interchange them, and I don't think it would be a good idea to try.

--Dwight

Sieger · 10-18-2003, 06:31 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Roadkill:
Been out shooting again, reached into my ammo stash and threw in a couple of boxes of VKT 1964 Finnish 9mm I got from Sportsmanguide a few years ago, loaded it into my 1918 shooter, and was it amazing. That gun acted like my ugly dog when I dropped a chicken leg off the grill. SNAP! It was gone. Accuracy was very good and the functioning was perfect. Granted, having Thor restore it had a lot to do with it, but I'd sure like to have another 1,000 or so rounds of that. Anybody know where any can be had?

rk<hr /></blockquote>In the German Text book "Die Pistole 08", there is a short section on Luger ammo. In it, the author claims that the Finnish 9MM military ammo is loaded to the original Parabellum formula. Perhaps he was right!

Sieger

BYF-42 · 10-19-2003, 08:19 AM

Dwight,

Quite so! Old firearms + ammunition not specifically manufactured to chamber in the gun of choice = research, research, research or catastrophe every time. As in so many things associated with the firearms hobby, Ã¢??Caveat EmptorÃ¢?Â!

Thankfully, this hobby is one of those activities were natural selection tends to weed out the really stupid ones. One can only hope to be nowhere near by when knuckle dragging NeanderthalÃ¢??s luck runs out.

MG · 10-19-2003, 12:04 PM

Hello Everyone,
Maybe someone here who reloads their own ammo can find some of this VKT 1964 Finnish 9mm and take some rounds apart to see how much powder,type of power,type of bullet,primer,case size,etc. that was used to make this ammo and maybe we can learn how the Germans setup the 9mm parabellum and how it should be made. It was said that this round was setup to original spec. of the 9mm. Any one think this is a good idea? Or maybe we can ask the Finnish what the spec.is.
Best Regards

Sieger · 10-19-2003, 07:20 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MG:
Hello Everyone,
Maybe someone here who reloads their own ammo can find some of this VKT 1964 Finnish 9mm and take some rounds apart to see how much powder,type of power,type of bullet,primer,case size,etc. that was used to make this ammo and maybe we can learn how the Germans setup the 9mm parabellum and how it should be made. It was said that this round was setup to original spec. of the 9mm. Any one think this is a good idea? Or maybe we can ask the Finnish what the spec.is.
Best Regards<hr /></blockquote>Dear MG

There is no need to ask the Finns, as the Germans have already told us. I have the original texts from the period and have all of the information you need to recreate the perfect Paraballum load. When loaded to the exact specs, you will have outstanding accuracy and perfect function. Modern powders will take only a small amount of experimentation.

Sieger

MG · 10-20-2003, 12:18 AM

Dear Sieger,
Is this infomation in a book or where can I find it on the web?

Thank you

Lugerdoc · 10-20-2003, 09:44 AM

Doubs et al, The 9mmBL (Browning Long) ammo was original designed for the M1903 FN and the 1908 Husqvarna pistols. I don't know of any other pistols ever designed to use this round. Incidently, I could use an orig 10rd, not the standard 7rd, magazine that will fit these above pistols. TH

Sieger · 10-20-2003, 05:00 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MG:
Dear Sieger,
Is this information in a book or where can I find it on the web?

Thank you<hr /></blockquote>MG:

No, it's not on the web. I've collected it over several years, mostly from original German text materials (it's nice to use my German every now and then). If you would like, you may e-mail me, or, for more fun, call me and I'll be very happy to share it with you.

Once you have learned the basics of Luger loading and its interaction with the function of the "Pistole" (these are easy to learn), you will be able to properly load almost any combination with success.

Sieger

wotan.ny@ix.netcom.com

10-16-2003, 01:35 PM	#1
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	Perfect Luger ammo Been out shooting again, reached into my ammo stash and threw in a couple of boxes of VKT 1964 Finnish 9mm I got from Sportsmanguide a few years ago, loaded it into my 1918 shooter, and was it amazing. That gun acted like my ugly dog when I dropped a chicken leg off the grill. SNAP! It was gone. Accuracy was very good and the functioning was perfect. Granted, having Thor restore it had a lot to do with it, but I'd sure like to have another 1,000 or so rounds of that. Anybody know where any can be had? rk

10-16-2003, 02:01 PM	#2
Lonnie Zimmerman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 523 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Roadkill, saw some Finnish 9mm for sale in the last few Shotgun News, but don"t know if it was the right stuff. Lonnie __________________ Lonnie Zimmerman

10-16-2003, 03:26 PM	#4
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	RK, some Finnish ammo here http://www.samcoglobal.com/ammo.html __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

10-16-2003, 05:16 PM	#7
Lonnie Zimmerman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 523 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Roadkill; Doubs is right, the 9mm Finnish is no longer for sale. It has been in the last few months, and if it shows up again I will contact you. Sorry! __________________ Lonnie Zimmerman

10-16-2003, 06:58 PM	#8
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Doubs, I think that the 9mm long is the regular 9mm round opposed to the 9mm short which is what we call the .380 ammo. The Germans call it 9mm Kurz. Before ordering anything an email to them might be in order. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

10-16-2003, 02:10 PM	#3
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	Thanks Lonnie, if its not too much trouble, can you provide a point of contact? rk

10-16-2003, 03:36 PM	#5
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	Herb, I'll once again exhibit my ignorance, but which one of those is for a 9mm Luger? rk

10-16-2003, 03:52 PM	#6
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,670 Thanks: 769 Thanked 1,611 Times in 525 Posts	RK, the only Luger ammo on that page is the first item; the .30 Luger cartridges which is not what you're looking for I don't think. The 9mm Browning Long has a longer case than the 9mm Luger and is a weaker cartridge.

10-16-2003, 07:32 PM	#9
Heinz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Greenville SC Posts: 1,004 Thanks: 377 Thanked 410 Times in 180 Posts	There is a 9mm long or 9mm Largo. Not to be confused with the 9mm parabellum. I can't remember what was chamberd for it.

10-16-2003, 08:58 PM	#10
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	Some Astra's, and other guns... __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

10-16-2003, 11:50 PM	#11
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,670 Thanks: 769 Thanked 1,611 Times in 525 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Herb: <strong>Doubs, I think that the 9mm long is the regular 9mm round opposed to the 9mm short which is what we call the .380 ammo. The Germans call it 9mm Kurz. Before ordering anything an email to them might be in order.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Herb, while I don't have a copy of "Cartridges of the World", in "Handguns of the World" the 9mm Browning Long is listed as having a 20mm straight-walled semi-rimmed case. Hatcher's book "Pistols and Revolvers", published in 1927, shows the cartridge firing a 110 grain bullet at 1100 FPS and having 300 FtLbs of energy. It's not quite up to Parabellum strength. It hasn't been loaded in the US in many years I don't believe.

10-18-2003, 10:50 AM	#12
BYF-42 User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Eastern North Carolina Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Gentlemen, Below is a list of cartridges that all are designated "9mm". Chances are that there are many other 9mm cartridges, these are just the ones that IÃ¢??m familiar withÃ¢?Â¦ 9mm Kurz also known as... 380 ACP (Automatic Colt Pistol), (9mm Browning Short), (9mm Corto) 9mm Makarov (9x18 PM) 9mm Makarov Modif. (9x18 PMM) 9mm Parabellum (Luger), (9x19) 9mm SP-10 (9x21 Russian) 9mm Steyr (9x23) loaded down from largo and the case has differing dimensions. 9mm Largo (9x23), (Spanish) 9mm (9x23) Winchester Very close to 9mm Largo dimensions, but loaded to higher pressures (not interchangeable). The cartridges below are generally accepted as being interchangeable with the 9mm Largo. 9mm Bayard Long (9x23) 9mm Astra M. 1921 9mm BERGMANN 1910/21 9mm DANISCHE PISTOLEN PATRONE 9mm STAR SELBSTLADE-PISTOLE 9mm BAYARD 9mm BAYARD ARMEE PISTOL 9mm BERGMANN "MARS" no. 6 9mm no. 6 BERGMANN 9mm MARS 9mm STAR AUTO-PISTOL 9mm BERGMANN-BAYARD __________________ Abe Truth is Truth! Perception and commentary upon any given matter is nothing more than another unavoidable nuisance of being human.

10-18-2003, 01:34 PM	#13
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,889 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,281 Times in 423 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by BYF-42: <strong>The cartridges below are generally accepted as being interchangeable with the 9mm Largo. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">I'd be a bit careful here for actual shooting use. Conventional wisdom has it that the Astra 400 (9mm Largo) is able to chamber and fire a number of different straight-case 9mm rounds, including even 9mm Parabellum! It can do this because the gun is -way- overbuilt and has a very hefty extractor. I've tried this with 9mm Parabellum, it works, but there is an awful lot of gas and powder blowback into the chamber between the cartridge and chamber wall, and long-term use of ammo with cases shorter than the 9mm Largo will eventually wear away the front of the chamber and destroy its headspace. Although these other cartridges may be aproximately interchangeable, I've never heard that other guns will safely interchange them, and I don't think it would be a good idea to try. --Dwight

10-18-2003, 06:31 PM	#14
Sieger User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,575 Thanks: 2,124 Thanked 400 Times in 249 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Roadkill: <strong>Been out shooting again, reached into my ammo stash and threw in a couple of boxes of VKT 1964 Finnish 9mm I got from Sportsmanguide a few years ago, loaded it into my 1918 shooter, and was it amazing. That gun acted like my ugly dog when I dropped a chicken leg off the grill. SNAP! It was gone. Accuracy was very good and the functioning was perfect. Granted, having Thor restore it had a lot to do with it, but I'd sure like to have another 1,000 or so rounds of that. Anybody know where any can be had? rk</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">In the German Text book "Die Pistole 08", there is a short section on Luger ammo. In it, the author claims that the Finnish 9MM military ammo is loaded to the original Parabellum formula. Perhaps he was right! Sieger

10-19-2003, 08:19 AM	#15
BYF-42 User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Eastern North Carolina Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Dwight, Quite so! Old firearms + ammunition not specifically manufactured to chamber in the gun of choice = research, research, research or catastrophe every time. As in so many things associated with the firearms hobby, Ã¢??Caveat EmptorÃ¢?Â! Thankfully, this hobby is one of those activities were natural selection tends to weed out the really stupid ones. One can only hope to be nowhere near by when knuckle dragging NeanderthalÃ¢??s luck runs out. __________________ Abe Truth is Truth! Perception and commentary upon any given matter is nothing more than another unavoidable nuisance of being human.

10-19-2003, 12:04 PM	#16
MG User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 93 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hello Everyone, Maybe someone here who reloads their own ammo can find some of this VKT 1964 Finnish 9mm and take some rounds apart to see how much powder,type of power,type of bullet,primer,case size,etc. that was used to make this ammo and maybe we can learn how the Germans setup the 9mm parabellum and how it should be made. It was said that this round was setup to original spec. of the 9mm. Any one think this is a good idea? Or maybe we can ask the Finnish what the spec.is. Best Regards __________________ MG "Si vis pacem, para bellum" 'If you want peace,prepare for war'

10-19-2003, 07:20 PM	#17
Sieger User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,575 Thanks: 2,124 Thanked 400 Times in 249 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by MG: <strong>Hello Everyone, Maybe someone here who reloads their own ammo can find some of this VKT 1964 Finnish 9mm and take some rounds apart to see how much powder,type of power,type of bullet,primer,case size,etc. that was used to make this ammo and maybe we can learn how the Germans setup the 9mm parabellum and how it should be made. It was said that this round was setup to original spec. of the 9mm. Any one think this is a good idea? Or maybe we can ask the Finnish what the spec.is. Best Regards</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Dear MG There is no need to ask the Finns, as the Germans have already told us. I have the original texts from the period and have all of the information you need to recreate the perfect Paraballum load. When loaded to the exact specs, you will have outstanding accuracy and perfect function. Modern powders will take only a small amount of experimentation. Sieger

10-20-2003, 12:18 AM	#18
MG User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 93 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Dear Sieger, Is this infomation in a book or where can I find it on the web? Thank you __________________ MG "Si vis pacem, para bellum" 'If you want peace,prepare for war'

10-20-2003, 09:44 AM	#19
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Doubs et al, The 9mmBL (Browning Long) ammo was original designed for the M1903 FN and the 1908 Husqvarna pistols. I don't know of any other pistols ever designed to use this round. Incidently, I could use an orig 10rd, not the standard 7rd, magazine that will fit these above pistols. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

10-20-2003, 05:00 PM	#20
Sieger User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,575 Thanks: 2,124 Thanked 400 Times in 249 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by MG: <strong>Dear Sieger, Is this information in a book or where can I find it on the web? Thank you</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">MG: No, it's not on the web. I've collected it over several years, mostly from original German text materials (it's nice to use my German every now and then). If you would like, you may e-mail me, or, for more fun, call me and I'll be very happy to share it with you. Once you have learned the basics of Luger loading and its interaction with the function of the "Pistole" (these are easy to learn), you will be able to properly load almost any combination with success. Sieger wotan.ny@ix.netcom.com