9x19 in 7,63x25 chamber

alvin · 12-05-2008, 08:41 PM

Thought about shooting 9x19 from 7,63 Mauser? One guy tried it many years ago, and he said the bullet flied out without visible damage to the gun. Not me, unfortunately, his words belong to the category that I cannot simply ignore.

The shoulder of 7,63x25 is a little bit higher than case length of 9x19. It is interesting to notice because the contour of 9x19 (less taper, "fatter"), chamber length of 7,63 pistol is effectively shortened when 9x19 loaded in. When firing 9x19 from 7,63 pistol (haven't tried yet), an obvious potential problem should be piercing the primer, well, beside blow up the barrel.

rolandtg · 12-05-2008, 10:23 PM

I don't buy it for a second.
Firing the 9mm (if the gun could) would result, imho, in catastrophic (and spectacular) failure.....

alvin · 12-05-2008, 10:40 PM

I agree, it's hard to believe. One story of a .45 1917 revolver is interesting as well:

I once knew a young man who was annoyed one night by an owl. He was an excellent revolver shot, so he got his .45 Model 1917, and took careful aim by the bright moonlight, and fired, without disturbing his feathered friend in the least. He took better aim, and fired again, and when the owl only opened his big eyes and looked puzzled, he took a quick shot with lots of temper behind it, and finally threw the revolver, which at least gave him the satisfaction of seeing the feathered pest flap away into the darkness. When he retrieved his gun and went to clean it, it wouldn't clean, and on examining for the reason, he found that the barrel was plugged. A steel drift and a hammer removed three service bullets. The barrel was slightly bulged. (Hatcher's Notebook, chapter "Experiment with Barrel Obstructions")

In this case, the barrel was only "slightly" bulged, no damage to the wheel..... three rounds, lower pressure than semi-auto, but still amazing though.

RichSr · 12-06-2008, 09:19 AM

Much lower pressure and the gap between the cylinderand the barrel allows for a large release of pressure. There is a widely printed picture of, I believe a .38 Enfield with the barrel disected showing more than a cylinders worth of bullets lodged in it. The barrel does not seem to have been bulged at all. Once again, low pressure and the cylinder gap explains the lack of damage.

LU1900 · 12-06-2008, 10:07 AM

..........

Steinar · 12-06-2008, 11:00 AM

Just tried to remove the firing pin and see if 9mm rounds can be chambered from the magazine into a 7.63 chamber, and at least that part of it is possible.

I quess the barrel could survive it, as every barrel extend a bit as the bullet passes trough. But on the other hand, this would be more than just 'a little bit'.. perhaps the metal is softer than whats used today, and by that making it possible?

I would think when firing a revolver where the bullets get stuck in the barrel, the shooter would hear a significantly less bang than normal? (especially if it was something like a Nagant)
Perhaps close to the KGB silenced amunition, where no gass gets out of the shell at all.. http://world.guns.ru/ammo/sp-e.htm

btw. Had a bullet stuck on a Mauser 1914 once, but did not notice any twist to left. Got so scared by all the sparks, that I probably would not notice much anyway..

Ron Smith · 12-06-2008, 11:18 AM

I think that it would result in a case of, "A fool and his face soon parting."

Vlim · 12-06-2008, 12:41 PM

I have no doubt that the first couple of rounds would probably make it through, provided they have a normal lead core. The barrel would get stressed to a point of failure eventually. I can imagine that steel cased or steel core ammunition would do quite some more damage as lead, and certainly hot lead, is relatively easy to deform.

What I also heard was a shooter using 7,65 para rounds in his unmodified C/96. The gas seal would not be as effectiv as with the 7,63 Mauser round, but otherwise it wouldn't cause much problems. Me, I'd like to use the ammo designed for the gun I shoot it with

alvin · 12-06-2008, 06:06 PM

According to what I heard, firing .380 ACP from 9m/m Luger pistol is OK, as long as the cartridge was feed from the magazine and hold by the extractor, it shoots but the action does not recycle completely because the ammo is weak. Manually pushing in .380ACP into chamber won't work because the case goes in too much.

This type of unusual activity also happened in real world operation....in "gun hungery" part of the world. In 1980s, Northwestern China, there was an fugitive armed with a Walther PPK, which was a super rare gun there, and he could not find appropriate 7,65m/m ammo, so he loaded the gun with "Type 64" pistol's cartridge (common there, rare here) which headspace is a little bit shorter than .32ACP. The gun usually worked and he had killed a few men with that. The day police captured him was interesting: he almost pushed the PPK barrel on the first police's forehead, who just rushed into the room and obviously astonished. The fugitive pushed the trigger.... no "bang".... the police "waked up", used his service pistol as a hammer and knocked the fugitive's head and captured him. Later inspection of the PPK and the chambered round showed a shallow dent on the primer. Not many people were so luck though.

alvin · 12-30-2008, 10:49 PM

Hehehe.... Just praised it could withstood relatively high pressure.... looks like it's one good reason for "stepped barrel" design on very late pieces.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=119228947

unspellable · 01-01-2009, 11:25 AM

I know of two cases of the 9 mm Parabellum cartridge being fired from a C96 chambered for the 7.62 Mauser. First case was a one off with no noticeable damage to the pistol. Second case was in England where an ignorant shooter had made it a practice. He was saved by the pistol ban. When his pistol went through the deactivation process it was noted damage was becoming apparent and it would have let go before very many more such rounds went through it.

It is sometimes surprising how much abuse a firearm can take.

Ron Smith · 01-01-2009, 11:54 AM

A GOOD and SENSIBLE practice is , NEVER fire a round through a gun that it was not chambered for.

There are several factors to consider. Failure due to pressure. Failure due to detonation. Failure due to metalurgy. And failure due to stupidity.

An example: It stands to reason that a 12ga shotgun should take higher pressures than a 20ga shotgun. However, if you fire a 20ga shell in a 12ga it can result in "20-12" detonation. A 20ga fired in a 12ga can and will blow up like a hand grenade. The kenetic energy needs to be tightly contained. If not, it will result in detonation. The same is true in all firearms. The rapid expansion of gases increases dramatically between the cartridge case and the chamber wall. It's like driving a car into a wall at 5 mph which would stop the car. As opposed to driving it 75 mph, the wall fails.

In 40+ years of shooting all types of guns, I have seen some pretty amazing and foolhardy things. I've also seen people with parts of their anatomies damaged and missing, due to "experiments" and negligence with firearms.

My advice is DON'T!!

It could result in having to type with your elbows, and reading with one eye...

Ron Wood · 01-01-2009, 12:51 PM

Ron,
I believe the "20 in 12" blow up is caused by careless hunters carrying 20ga. and 12ga. shot shells mixed together. When you drop a 20ga. into a 12ga. gun, it won't fire but it drops to the forward end of the chamber. Upon the failure to fire, the hapless hunter then loads a correct 12ga. shell in on top of the 20ga. resulting in the hand grenade effect the next time he pulls the trigger. This of course happens when 2 1/2" shells are being used in a gun chambered for 3" shells.

wlyon · 01-01-2009, 04:59 PM

Ron
I don't think it matters if you shoot 2 1/2 shotgun shells in a 3 inch chamber. The shotgun headspaces on the head of the case. Several of the trapshooters I shoot with use 2 1/2 shells in their 3 inch duck gun. Bill

Ron Smith · 01-01-2009, 06:36 PM

Ron,

Sent e-mail

Bill,

Check your PMs.

Ron Wood · 01-01-2009, 06:36 PM

Bill,
Thanks for the clarification. I know you can use 2 1/2" shells in a 3" chamber, I have done it. What I was indicating is that it takes a 3" chamber to allow the 2 1/2" 20ga. shell to drop in far enough to allow a 2 1/2" 12ga. shell to be loaded behind it.

LugerVern · 01-01-2009, 08:28 PM

Many C96's have nearly shot out barrels and even more are almost smooth bored. With little or no rifling the pressures would be greatly reduced.

I just want to say that shooting 9X19 in a 7.63 is very stupid, I don't know how else to say it.

I plead with everyone not to do this stunt, you are endangering your life and the life of those around you by doing so-its not worth it.

Vern

wlyon · 01-01-2009, 09:20 PM

Ron
Got it. I should have thought first. It's an age thing. Bill

Steinar · 01-02-2009, 06:00 AM

First, let me say happy new year everyone!

Then over to what I have to say, wich is besides the point I guess.. but I'm using the 7.62x25mm Tokarev ammunition produced by Winchester in my 7.63mm C96 and Royal. In general 7.62 Tokarev should not be used, as they are a bit too hot.. but these made by Winchester seems to be just right.

unspellable · 01-03-2009, 07:25 PM

The Winchester Tokarev stuff is relabeled ammo from a European manufacturer. S&B if I remember correctly. Which says nothing one way or the other for how hot a load it is.

BTW: Modern 12, 16, & 20 gauge cartridges all have the same SAAMI pressure specs. I think the 28 gauge does too. The .410 runs higher pressures since it must push a longer shot column to similar velocities.

12-05-2008, 08:41 PM	#1
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	9x19 in 7,63x25 chamber Thought about shooting 9x19 from 7,63 Mauser? One guy tried it many years ago, and he said the bullet flied out without visible damage to the gun. Not me, unfortunately, his words belong to the category that I cannot simply ignore. The shoulder of 7,63x25 is a little bit higher than case length of 9x19. It is interesting to notice because the contour of 9x19 (less taper, "fatter"), chamber length of 7,63 pistol is effectively shortened when 9x19 loaded in. When firing 9x19 from 7,63 pistol (haven't tried yet), an obvious potential problem should be piercing the primer, well, beside blow up the barrel. Attached Thumbnails

12-06-2008, 09:19 AM	#4
RichSr User Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: West Texas Posts: 127 Thanks: 153 Thanked 51 Times in 35 Posts	Much lower pressure and the gap between the cylinderand the barrel allows for a large release of pressure. There is a widely printed picture of, I believe a .38 Enfield with the barrel disected showing more than a cylinders worth of bullets lodged in it. The barrel does not seem to have been bulged at all. Once again, low pressure and the cylinder gap explains the lack of damage. __________________ Rich

12-06-2008, 10:07 AM	#5
LU1900 User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: FRANCE Posts: 900 Thanks: 35 Thanked 461 Times in 193 Posts	.......... __________________ Best regards from France...Patrice https://www.fichier-pdf.fr/2016/03/1...nd-snail-drum/

12-06-2008, 11:00 AM	#6
Steinar User Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 1,538 Thanks: 18 Thanked 36 Times in 21 Posts	Just tried to remove the firing pin and see if 9mm rounds can be chambered from the magazine into a 7.63 chamber, and at least that part of it is possible. I quess the barrel could survive it, as every barrel extend a bit as the bullet passes trough. But on the other hand, this would be more than just 'a little bit'.. perhaps the metal is softer than whats used today, and by that making it possible? I would think when firing a revolver where the bullets get stuck in the barrel, the shooter would hear a significantly less bang than normal? (especially if it was something like a Nagant) Perhaps close to the KGB silenced amunition, where no gass gets out of the shell at all.. http://world.guns.ru/ammo/sp-e.htm btw. Had a bullet stuck on a Mauser 1914 once, but did not notice any twist to left. Got so scared by all the sparks, that I probably would not notice much anyway.. __________________ Previously known as Morgan Kane

12-06-2008, 11:18 AM	#7
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	I think that it would result in a case of, "A fool and his face soon parting." __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

12-05-2008, 10:23 PM	#2
rolandtg User Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Texas Hill Country Posts: 471 Thanks: 361 Thanked 254 Times in 111 Posts	I don't buy it for a second. Firing the 9mm (if the gun could) would result, imho, in catastrophic (and spectacular) failure.....

12-05-2008, 10:40 PM	#3
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	I agree, it's hard to believe. One story of a .45 1917 revolver is interesting as well: I once knew a young man who was annoyed one night by an owl. He was an excellent revolver shot, so he got his .45 Model 1917, and took careful aim by the bright moonlight, and fired, without disturbing his feathered friend in the least. He took better aim, and fired again, and when the owl only opened his big eyes and looked puzzled, he took a quick shot with lots of temper behind it, and finally threw the revolver, which at least gave him the satisfaction of seeing the feathered pest flap away into the darkness. When he retrieved his gun and went to clean it, it wouldn't clean, and on examining for the reason, he found that the barrel was plugged. A steel drift and a hammer removed three service bullets. The barrel was slightly bulged. (Hatcher's Notebook, chapter "Experiment with Barrel Obstructions") In this case, the barrel was only "slightly" bulged, no damage to the wheel..... three rounds, lower pressure than semi-auto, but still amazing though.

12-06-2008, 12:41 PM	#8
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,032 Thanks: 1,018 Thanked 3,873 Times in 1,184 Posts	I have no doubt that the first couple of rounds would probably make it through, provided they have a normal lead core. The barrel would get stressed to a point of failure eventually. I can imagine that steel cased or steel core ammunition would do quite some more damage as lead, and certainly hot lead, is relatively easy to deform. What I also heard was a shooter using 7,65 para rounds in his unmodified C/96. The gas seal would not be as effectiv as with the 7,63 Mauser round, but otherwise it wouldn't cause much problems. Me, I'd like to use the ammo designed for the gun I shoot it with

12-06-2008, 06:06 PM	#9
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	According to what I heard, firing .380 ACP from 9m/m Luger pistol is OK, as long as the cartridge was feed from the magazine and hold by the extractor, it shoots but the action does not recycle completely because the ammo is weak. Manually pushing in .380ACP into chamber won't work because the case goes in too much. This type of unusual activity also happened in real world operation....in "gun hungery" part of the world. In 1980s, Northwestern China, there was an fugitive armed with a Walther PPK, which was a super rare gun there, and he could not find appropriate 7,65m/m ammo, so he loaded the gun with "Type 64" pistol's cartridge (common there, rare here) which headspace is a little bit shorter than .32ACP. The gun usually worked and he had killed a few men with that. The day police captured him was interesting: he almost pushed the PPK barrel on the first police's forehead, who just rushed into the room and obviously astonished. The fugitive pushed the trigger.... no "bang".... the police "waked up", used his service pistol as a hammer and knocked the fugitive's head and captured him. Later inspection of the PPK and the chambered round showed a shallow dent on the primer. Not many people were so luck though. Last edited by alvin; 12-06-2008 at 07:22 PM.

12-30-2008, 10:49 PM	#10
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Hehehe.... Just praised it could withstood relatively high pressure.... looks like it's one good reason for "stepped barrel" design on very late pieces. http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=119228947

01-01-2009, 11:25 AM	#11
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 10 Posts	I know of two cases of the 9 mm Parabellum cartridge being fired from a C96 chambered for the 7.62 Mauser. First case was a one off with no noticeable damage to the pistol. Second case was in England where an ignorant shooter had made it a practice. He was saved by the pistol ban. When his pistol went through the deactivation process it was noted damage was becoming apparent and it would have let go before very many more such rounds went through it. It is sometimes surprising how much abuse a firearm can take.

01-01-2009, 11:54 AM	#12
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	A GOOD and SENSIBLE practice is , NEVER fire a round through a gun that it was not chambered for. There are several factors to consider. Failure due to pressure. Failure due to detonation. Failure due to metalurgy. And failure due to stupidity. An example: It stands to reason that a 12ga shotgun should take higher pressures than a 20ga shotgun. However, if you fire a 20ga shell in a 12ga it can result in "20-12" detonation. A 20ga fired in a 12ga can and will blow up like a hand grenade. The kenetic energy needs to be tightly contained. If not, it will result in detonation. The same is true in all firearms. The rapid expansion of gases increases dramatically between the cartridge case and the chamber wall. It's like driving a car into a wall at 5 mph which would stop the car. As opposed to driving it 75 mph, the wall fails. In 40+ years of shooting all types of guns, I have seen some pretty amazing and foolhardy things. I've also seen people with parts of their anatomies damaged and missing, due to "experiments" and negligence with firearms. My advice is DON'T!! It could result in having to type with your elbows, and reading with one eye... __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said... Last edited by Ron Smith; 01-01-2009 at 12:23 PM.

01-01-2009, 12:51 PM	#13
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	Ron, I believe the "20 in 12" blow up is caused by careless hunters carrying 20ga. and 12ga. shot shells mixed together. When you drop a 20ga. into a 12ga. gun, it won't fire but it drops to the forward end of the chamber. Upon the failure to fire, the hapless hunter then loads a correct 12ga. shell in on top of the 20ga. resulting in the hand grenade effect the next time he pulls the trigger. This of course happens when 2 1/2" shells are being used in a gun chambered for 3" shells. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

01-01-2009, 04:59 PM	#14
wlyon Lifer 2X Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Somewhere in Montana Posts: 2,614 Thanks: 3,140 Thanked 2,519 Times in 939 Posts	Ron I don't think it matters if you shoot 2 1/2 shotgun shells in a 3 inch chamber. The shotgun headspaces on the head of the case. Several of the trapshooters I shoot with use 2 1/2 shells in their 3 inch duck gun. Bill __________________ Bill Lyon

01-01-2009, 06:36 PM	#15
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Ron, Sent e-mail Bill, Check your PMs. __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

01-01-2009, 08:28 PM	#17
LugerVern User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 563 Thanks: 1 Thanked 34 Times in 27 Posts	Many C96's have nearly shot out barrels and even more are almost smooth bored. With little or no rifling the pressures would be greatly reduced. I just want to say that shooting 9X19 in a 7.63 is very stupid, I don't know how else to say it. I plead with everyone not to do this stunt, you are endangering your life and the life of those around you by doing so-its not worth it. Vern

01-01-2009, 09:20 PM	#18
wlyon Lifer 2X Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Somewhere in Montana Posts: 2,614 Thanks: 3,140 Thanked 2,519 Times in 939 Posts	Ron Got it. I should have thought first. It's an age thing. Bill __________________ Bill Lyon

01-02-2009, 06:00 AM	#19
Steinar User Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 1,538 Thanks: 18 Thanked 36 Times in 21 Posts	First, let me say happy new year everyone! Then over to what I have to say, wich is besides the point I guess.. but I'm using the 7.62x25mm Tokarev ammunition produced by Winchester in my 7.63mm C96 and Royal. In general 7.62 Tokarev should not be used, as they are a bit too hot.. but these made by Winchester seems to be just right. __________________ Previously known as Morgan Kane

01-03-2009, 07:25 PM	#20
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 10 Posts	The Winchester Tokarev stuff is relabeled ammo from a European manufacturer. S&B if I remember correctly. Which says nothing one way or the other for how hot a load it is. BTW: Modern 12, 16, & 20 gauge cartridges all have the same SAAMI pressure specs. I think the 28 gauge does too. The .410 runs higher pressures since it must push a longer shot column to similar velocities.