Bad extractor or bad ammo?

[zzsql]

Hi,
I have a nice DWM Luger dated 1918 shown here:


I just got it and went to shoot yesterday only to find it wouldn't properly extract spent shell casings.

I noticed that there was some serious scuffing on the outer case as shown here:


It was remington rounds marked for Luger pistols yet they would appear to a novice like me to be slightly too large to fit in the chamber.

Some shells had to be extracted with a pocket knife.

Does anybody know of a better round that will fit in this weapon?

Thanks.
I'm sure to some this is an utter n00b question but this is my first personal experience with a Luger despite a lot of weapon experience. (Mostly military)

Greg

[Curly1]

Welcome to the forum Greg

Remingtons won't work in mine either.

Try the Winchester white box 115gr.
Place them side by side and you will se a difference.

[Terry Tiell]

^ ^ ^ This. And Winchester's in the white box an be had for $24.00 a box of 100 at Walmart.

[rhuff]

Another brand of ammo that works very well in my shooter Lugers is PMC 115gr FMJ. They are inexpensive and available in many places. Don't be surprised to see that same scuffing on the brass of other brands....pretty common.

Have you broken this Luger down and given it a thorough cleaning and lubing? That includes removing the extractor and spring and a good cleaning of the extractor channel. Also remove the firing pin, spring, and retainer and give the channel a good cleaning.

These "old girls" like to be kept clean and lubed.

[Lugerdoc]

Greg, I seem to see a line on your spent casing where the bottleneck of a .30 Luger case would be before it was discharged. Hopefully, you are using 9mm luger, not 7.65mm Luger. Also the discoloration at the bottom of your case, might indicate a worn or bad chamber area. It's time to visit your local lugersmith. TH

[Sieger]

Hi:

By the looks of your case, this particular ammo looks too hot for your pistol.

Try the Winchester as mentioned above. Better yet, reload for your Luger, as this is the only sure fire way of making them perform!

A weak extractor spring leaves cases in the chamber, or better yet, leaves them partially extracted and ready to jam the pistol.


Sieger

[sheepherder]

Dirty chamber??? Cartridge looks like it is a bit on the hot side...and a dirty/corroded chamber won't extract properly...

I'd brush it real good, and maybe even some crocus cloth wrapped around a pencil or dowel and spun in the chamber to clean it up...

I like shiny chambers...

[rhuff]

Tom,

You maybe correct about a 30Luger shot in a 9mm chamber, but that line on the brass looks like a cannalure that some companys put on their ammo to help prevent set back.....that is what I thought that it was. Plus, I believe that I can read 9mm on the casehead. Only the OP can tell us for sure.

[zzsql]

Hi,
I tried the Winchester 115gr 9MM rounds but they also jammed in the tube.

It's not dirty but I'll give it a good cleaning anyhow.
The extractor pin spring seems strong enough to do its job.
Even when a spent shell sticks in the tube it takes a tool to get it out so i'm pretty sure it's not the extractor.

Is it common with these to have the rear bore increased slightly to accommodate larger modern rounds?

Thanks for all the feedback.

Greg near Pittsburgh, PA

[mrerick]

The 9mm Luger round (9x19mm) was designed by Luger for our Luger pistols.

It's specification is a standard. The bullet shape has been re-designed many times, but the case specification is stable at this point (last changed in 2007). (SAAMI maintains manufacturing standards for ammo in the USA). An index of their specs for pistol cartridges is here.



That said, I reload 9mm, and have encountered quite a bit of small variance between manufacturers. The size difference you may be observing is the taper crimp some manufacturers use to snug in the cartridge case around the bullet.

These things cannot account for the surface you're seeing on your spent cartridges. They look like there has been corrosion damage (or something else) that made the middle of your chamber rough. You should be able to inspect this visually, and by feel (using the tip of a chop stick rubbed against the side).

This area is rather precision in it's dimensions. When a cartridge is fired, the brass is compressed against the chamber walls with 40,000+psi of pressure. Being brass, it springs back a little, allowing extraction. A rough surface, or an uneven surface that is letting high pressure gas blow back are both possibilities.

The 9mm pistol cartridge head spaces on the front edge of the case. There could also be damage to this area of the chamber that is permitting blowback. It's possible that too much head space is leaving a gap for gasses to blow through.

The chamber needs to be inspected for damage, headspace and fit.

[zzsql]

Alright,
I couldn't take a photo of it so I made a representation of it here:



See the middle ridge.
Judging by the ring left on the spent cartridge it would appear that the concussion of the round going off expands the cartridge against the walls of the inner chamber causing it to lodge in there.

I think I need a gunsmith.

Greg

[mrerick]

Greg,

And someone specifically skilled and familiar with Lugers and their design...

Far too many people without experience will approach working on Lugers. Their design is unique.

Marc

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by Lugerdoc

Greg, I seem to see a line on your spent casing where the bottleneck of a .30 Luger case would be before it was discharged. Hopefully, you are using 9mm luger, not 7.65mm Luger. Also the discoloration at the bottom of your case, might indicate a worn or bad chamber area. It's time to visit your local lugersmith. TH

Hi:

The original 9mm Luger chamber was designed this way to better seal the case against the chamber wall. Later 9mm pistol designs abandoned this original chamber design. Perhaps this is why the newer models are not as accurate as Georg's original creation.

Please take a good look at the original chamber specs.

Sieger

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by zzsql

Hi,
I tried the Winchester 115gr 9MM rounds but they also jammed in the tube.

It's not dirty but I'll give it a good cleaning anyhow.
The extractor pin spring seems strong enough to do its job.
Even when a spent shell sticks in the tube it takes a tool to get it out so i'm pretty sure it's not the extractor.

Is it common with these to have the rear bore increased slightly to accommodate larger modern rounds?

Thanks for all the feedback.

Greg near Pittsburgh, PA

Hi:

Are you telling us that after firing, you have to use a tool to forceably dislodge the stuck case; that the case is actually stuck to the chamber walls?!?

Your fired case doesn't look all that strange to me, actually it looks quite typical for 9mms in general.

I bet that if you were to replace that extractor spring, your Luger would extract just fine, as Lugers have a very positive and powerful extraction force. See U-Tube for a video on how to replace your extractor spring. Also, when the spring is in spec., it is quite hard to move the extractor by finger force.

As a general comment, any "normal" modern brass case should fit your chamber quite well. I would't be heading off to some "Gunsmith" with my precious Luger for "adjustment" of a design that was perfect upon conception over 100 years ago.

Enjoy shooting your Luger, but don't shoot the "hot stuff" through it.

Sieger

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by zzsql

Alright,
I couldn't take a photo of it so I made a representation of it here:



See the middle ridge.
Judging by the ring left on the spent cartridge it would appear that the concussion of the round going off expands the cartridge against the walls of the inner chamber causing it to lodge in there.

I think I need a gunsmith.

Greg

Hi:

Georg Luger designed the 9mm Luger chamber as a "mini bottleneck" for a good reason. The ring you are seeing in the chamber was originally designed to better seal the case against the chamber walls to avoid the escape of gas to the rear of the case. This is actually a superior design to all of the other 9mm "newer design", smooth sided chambers out there.

How is the condition of your bore otherwise? Is it in good or better condition, or is it raged out? Believe me, if you still have the orignal barrel on your pistol, it never left the factory not being tested and proven perfect as to head space, etc.

Please replace that extractor spring, then go shooting again.

Sieger

[skeeter4206]

Hello:

I just started reading about this spent cartridge issue on the luger. I have a 1900 luger I have. I only shot 1 full magazine of bullets thru the gun. Out of the (8) bullets (2) of the cartridges did not extract properly. Now mine I could easily get out with my finger with no problem at all. I didnt really ponder on this until reading this thread.

My gun does have some pitting within the chamber where the shell goes. This particular gun shoot a .30 cal round. Before I shoot it I took some 600 grit sandpaper and some oil and lightly ran around the inside of the chamber. Note, that I did not do any hard sanding to remove the pitting. I didnt wanna reove any metal. I was more just trying to smoothe/clean the bore a little more. But I was just looking at my extractor on the gun, and my extractor does move quite easy with my finger. It even moves a little with no pressure before it starts having tention.

I watched a video on you-tube to see how to remove the extractor. My extractor is flat on the top of the firing pin section of the toggle with no holding pin on the side that I can see.

My question to yall is do I need to see a gunsmith a smooth out the bore more and try to remove the pitting? And also the extractor, how does it come out and should I replace it due to the low tension on it. And does it have a spring under it as the extractor with the holding pin does

[skeeter4206]

Heres some pictures of my extractor and the pitting inside the bore the best I could get the picture to take.

[Sieger]

Hi:

Your Luger is too valuable to alter in any way.

Sieger

[skeeter4206]

Note that this luger has had a new barrel installed at one time I do believe. There are no serail numbers on the barrel. Also the rear toggle has been modified to have a peep sight instead of the V-shaped sight. I have been advised that these have already de-valued the gun a little and this would be a good shooter gun. So... being a shooter gun, Id like for it to extract the shells properly. But I dont wanna just start changing things out. This gun still has allother parts matching numbers, even the grips.

The extractor I am still curious about that issue. Is this proper for this type of etractor, being a little loose at first. Is there a spring underneath it?

And trust me I aint wanting to shoot a whole lot. But just shoot every now and then. And maybe let some people that know what the gun is and what it means to history be able to shoot one.

Thanks
Glenn

[Ron Wood]

The extractor is the proper type for a M1900. It is a spring itself, so there is no additional spring under it. It used to be very difficult to find replacements for them, but now some good quality reproductions are being produced. I doubt your extractor needs replaced (at least until it breaks, which hopefully won't happen ).
From your photos, it looks like your extraction problems may stem from the chamber. It looks pretty nasty with lots of pitting. A gunsmith may be able to polish it up a bit, but if that doesn't work, I would think the only alternatives would be a barrel reline or another replacement.