Unit Mark G.K. on 1914 Erfurt...

[nick.helms]

Thanks Klaus, could you by chance post the link to the thread on Luger.gunboards? I couldn't find it when I searched and would like to see the discussion. I do find it an interesting coincidence that two 1914 Erfurt Luger's (with a production of only 7000) would have two different unit/police stamps that close, GK74 and GK122. I should have Don's book next week and I look forward to seeing the Luger pictured, but if the continuous numbering is correct for the Garde-Kurassier it raises an interesting question on any G.K. marked gun, unless there is a clear way to differentiate the Imperial mark from Weimer Police. And Don, I think I must me missing something on your sizing for the pistol number, if I look at 2.1mm with a ruler that seems smaller than the serial number under the barrel and I know I've seen unit marked pistols with those weapon numbers larger than the serial number. I know I'm probably missing something obvious here...

Again thanks all, a very interesting discussion, Nick

[Norme]

Hi Nick, Here's the link. Please note that this gun, unlike yours, is a 1918 dated DWM. Regards, Norm
http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...-Unit-Markings

[Don M]

Originally Posted by nick.helms

And Don, I think I must me missing something on your sizing for the pistol number, if I look at 2.1mm with a ruler that seems smaller than the serial number under the barrel and I know I've seen unit marked pistols with those weapon numbers larger than the serial number. I know I'm probably missing something obvious here...

Nick, the 2.1 mm specification is for the size of armorer's dies to be used for weapon numbers on Prusssian military and later police weapons. The serial numbers were applied by the factory and I don't know what specifications existed for their sizes.

These specifications applied to Prussian weapons. The police of other states (such as Hessen) did not necessarily use these sizes.

[nick.helms]

Thanks Norm, I had looked last week on luger.gunboards and couldn't find anything, I didn't realize the thread had just started yesterday, I'm usually pretty good searching the forum for information and was surprised when Klaus referenced the thread. And thanks Don for the clarification, I was using the under barrel serial number for sizing reference only, I realize the barrel stamp and strap mark were applied at different times by different folks. Without having seen other Prussian markings it just seemed small when I was looking at the ruler when I know I've seen other pistols with that stamp larger than 2.1mm (not Prussian units though and that may be the cause of the confusion). I'll try to get a good measure of my numbers later today, I wish Jan had pictures of the other G.K. markings he references, it would be interesting to compare them, my pistol obviously saw police use with the sear safety so it would be logical to match with the Hessen mark but with the other pistols Jan lists to the Garde being 1913/1914 Erfurts (both pretty rare) it does make an interesting coincidence that this pistol would be so close (assuming the other Erfurt 1914 G.K.74 is correctly identified as Garde).

Thanks, Nick

[Don M]

Here are photos of three of the G.K. markings. The width of P08 grip straps is 15 mm so it is possible to scale these photos to get an appproximate size of the characters. My results are:

G.K.59. - Letters 4.2 mm, numerals 2.4 mm
G.K.122. - Letters 4.2 mm, numerals 3.2 mm
G.K.128. - Letters 3.3 mm, numerals 3.3 mm

I suspect the true sizes of the dies were 4.2, 3.1 and 2.1 mm, apparently standard sizes.

Clearly there is some inconsistency in the sizing. Only the G.K.59. marking is consistent with the Prussian specifications. However, I am very reluctant to believe that this marking is from a different organization than the other two. For example, Hessische Polizei (H.P.) markings are found in two sizes, the later markings being larger than the earlier ones.

I also think it is unwise to assume that the G.K.5.74. marking cited in the references suggests that the G.K.74. marking from Jan's list is from the Garde Kürassier. As Jan pointed out, the G.K.5.74. marking first appears in the 1909 Prussian instructions as a "sample" marking and has persisted through several subsequent books. There is no reason to believe that this exact marking appeared on a weapon. Although I don't know the source, the G.K.74. marking is almost certainly real. It is found on a 1914 Erfurt and postdates the instruction by at least five years and probably more like ten. The fact that the weapon numbers are the same is surely a coincidence.

[DD-P08]

Don,
Thanks for directing me to this thread. Based on what I remember seeing on the front strap of the pistol it looks very similar to the stamping above "G.K. 128". It appears that the firearm was blued after the application of the stamp leading some to believe that the gun was a reblue. However after removing the grips I found the typical areas in the white denoting rust bluing and normal looking ageing of the unblued areas. The grips may be replacements since they have no numbers or other markings. The stampings on the mags are more ornate looking in an almost Germanic script. They do not have the same unit marks. The holster was unlike anything I have ever seen for a luger. It was a tan or light brown color with multiple long straps. I could not find any makers marks. I will inquire on the holster as well. I will make a special trip to photograph the gun, mags and holster (if available) tomorrow.

[Don M]

David, welcome to this forum. Your gun will add further information to this thread. We are looking forward to seeing photos. It sounds as if you have an interesting rig. Please be sure to post a photo of the left side of the gun as well as the marking so we can see if it has a police sear safety.

If you don't mind saying, where in Texas are you located? I'm in Houston.

[DD-P08]

Don,
I am located in the North Dallas area. Sorry it has taken so long to get the information but the work thing keeps interfering with the play thing. Here are the photos taken today of the items. If you would be so kind as to indicate a history on the magazines as well, it would be greatly appreciated. I apologize in advance for the photos as I am not an expert. Any photos that need to be retaken or additional photos can be had after this weekend. I will be glad to help. Pictures of the toggle top and barrel stank so I did not include.

This has been a challenge. Server time out and refresh has deleted all of my image links. Some fun! Second time is the charm right?

[DD-P08]

Now the mags:

[DD-P08]

The holster:

[Don M]

David, your photos are actually quite good.

I agree that the letters and numerals in this marking are both 3.1 mm as in G.K.128. Apparently, the GK was not a stickler for uniformity.

The mags are both from the Schutzpolizei of Hannover. The S.Hn. marking predates the S.H. but it is neat that they are matching #1 and #2 mags (HWIS Chapter 9).

The holster appears to be a shoulder holster. Hopefully, someone with more knowledge of holsters will comment.

A very interesting and eclectic rig!

[Norme]

Hi David, This is somewhat out of my field, but the two magazines appear to be Simsons (Eagle/6), which are quite collectible on their own. Regards, Norm

[Don M]

I agree with Norm. Both appear to have E/6 acceptances. Cool!

[nick.helms]

Hey Don,

Is it my bad eye's or do these three pistols with the G.K.1xx numbering all look a bit different? It would seem like pistols this close together in numbering would be pretty uniform even with the Police.

thanks, Nick

[Don M]

Originally Posted by nick.helms

Hey Don,

Is it my bad eye's or do these three pistols with the G.K.1xx numbering all look a bit different? It would seem like pistols this close together in numbering would be pretty uniform even with the Police.

thanks, Nick

They do employ a variety of font sizes although the font styles appear the same. There is no basis for believing these pistols were all acquired by the GK at the same time. They may have been obtained at various times and marked by different armorers who either had different sets of dies or had no size specifications to work from.

[hammered54]

I'll throw my into the mix here.

1914 Erfurt all matching #2224 including the mag's.

and on the grip strap in G.K. 71. and it does have the sear safety.

[Don M]

Hi Matt,

Thanks for the info. Any chance of posting a photo of the marking?

[nick.helms]

Hey Matt,

Would be great to see some pics, yours is within 200 of mine.

thanks, nick

[Geo99]

For anyone interested in these G.K. unit marks -

G.K.81. has surfaced, and it is another 1914 Erfurt with a sear safety. It's an original 1914 manufacture, without the artillery notch. I believe the 1914 Erfurts that have the notched barrel are later put-together guns, not part of the original 7000 made in 1914.

I saw it on gunbroker recently, didn't win it.

- Geo

[Don M]

Thanks for posting Geo. Do you know the sn?