DWM 1911 Namibia

Piet · 02-09-2009, 12:58 AM

I have a DWM 1911 Luger. Originally confiscated by a Boer Sergeant in Namibia (South West Africa) in the 1914 war between the Britts and Germany in Namibia. As South Africa was a British Colony, the Boers had to join the fight. The Boer Sergeant was my great grandfather.
The Luger was taken from a German Sergeant who was commander of a machine gun post. (Or so the story goes)
The serial number is 199 and all the parts have 99 on it.
At the back of the grip (bottom) is LP 366
Can anyone tell me about this LP 366 and what it means?
Piet (South Africa)

Jan C Still · 02-09-2009, 01:26 AM

Piet
1911 DWM, sn 199f, marked LP / 336 on its back strap. This signifies: Landespolizei Deutsch-Sudwest Afrika. These were issued to the Schutztruppe officers of Deutsch Sud-West-Afrika (see Central Powers Pistols page 279 and 280.

The Landespolizei Deutsch-Sudwest Afrika Lugers consisted of DWM and Erfurt military Lugers dated 1911.

This is a rare treasure that is a part of history. Only a few are reported in the United States, Please post photographs.
Jan

What is the suffix on the front of the frame?

George Anderson · 02-09-2009, 09:04 AM

Piet, you have a real treasure as Jan says. Like you, I have a 1911 P08 property marked to the Landespolizei DSWA. Mine is a close cousin to yours being only four numbers off, LP370.

Piet · 02-09-2009, 11:05 AM

Some photos of 1911 DWM LP 366.
The WR number was "punched" by some idiot, to take it up in the South African "Wapenregister" or Weapon Register, when all firearms had to be registered. (I do not know when)
I could not get a good photo of the suffix on the front of the frame - I will try again later.
Piet

Piet · 02-09-2009, 11:15 AM

Amazing that the numbers are so near to each other! Do you have other information on these Lugers?

George Anderson · 02-09-2009, 11:18 AM

Piet, it's a beautiful piece. I would bet that the full serial number is 199f. Is there a serial number on the magazine? If so are the numbers small or large?
Do you have any details of the story of your great grandfather and where he was when he took the pistol?

Piet · 02-09-2009, 11:27 AM

It could be an f under the 199 It is very small. I will try to send a photo later.
We do not know where the incident with the German sargeant happened. The weapon is in good condition. I still have the holster and a few bullets, as well as the small steel tool.

George Anderson · 02-09-2009, 12:24 PM

Will you post photos of the holster and report any markings in or on the holster? May we also see photos of the tool and any markings it has?

Piet · 02-09-2009, 02:00 PM

George
See photos of front of frame
As you said it would be! f
I am not full time on internet. No markings that I can find on Holster accept ink mark in holster 190.
Magazines numbers248 f and 432 f

Jan C Still · 02-09-2009, 02:14 PM

Piet
thanks for the excellent photographs. The book Central Powers Pistols has some information on these 1911 dated Lugers and the Deutsch Sud-West-Afrika Shutztruppe during World War I (pages 279 and 280). German SW Africa surrendered on 9 July 1915 with 1,331 killed.
Jan
The Great War in Africa by Byron Farwell is an excellent reference on the conflict between South Africa and German SW Africa during World War I.
As George said the suffix is an "f".

Piet · 02-09-2009, 02:57 PM

Thank you Jan. You have a name that is common to us. "Jan" is as Afrikaans as Koos or Piet. Thanks for your input.
Piet

Piet · 02-09-2009, 03:02 PM

George,
The letters on the magazines are about 2,5mm high (stamped in the wooden base)
248 f and 432 f (I have mastered to recognise the f - thanks) What does it means. Has it anything to do with the proof marks on the frame (2x fancy F's with Crowns on top and an eagle)
Piet

Edward Tinker · 02-09-2009, 04:22 PM

piet, the front suffix is totally differnet than the proof marks on the right. At the time, every 10,000 lugers were made, a new suffix was added, so;

serial number 1 sn 2 sn 3 .... sn 9999 sn 1a sn 2a .... 9999a up to sn 9999e sn 1f sn 2f up to your numbers 248f etc.

Ed

George Anderson · 02-09-2009, 04:40 PM

Piet, thank you for the additional photographs. You give the data bases a great deal of good information with what you have shared with us so far. Mr Jeff Noll's book "Imperial German Regimental Marking" lists three 1911 DWM P08's unit marked to the Landespolizei DSWA. Adding mine and yours as well as your two magazines the list is...
9656e LP157
9772e LP370
9844e LP343
166f LP335
199f LP366
248f mag only
432f mag only

There are also six 1911 Erfurt P08's recorded that are marked to the Landespolizei DSWA.

RockinWR · 02-09-2009, 10:12 PM

Piet & George,
* This may be of interest from a previous thread:
http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...ghlight=Africa
Respectfully,
Bob

Don M · 02-09-2009, 10:40 PM

Period documents indicate there were 442 P08s in the inventory of the LPDSWA in October 1912. With this new one, I have recorded 18 -- about 4% of the original number. This is a relatively high "survival rate" compared with other German police units. These will be covered in some detail in my forthcoming book History Writ in Steel.

Thanks very much for posting this Piet.

Jan C Still · 02-10-2009, 01:44 AM

Piet
More information on the German SW Africa Police Lugers:
German Southwest African Police Lugerkeoki7 http://luger.gunboards.com/showthread.php?t=714

1911 DWM ID and value? http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...ghlight=Africa
Jan

Piet · 02-10-2009, 02:46 PM

Amazing, where do you guys get all the knowledge! I cant ceep up with all the information

Piet · 02-10-2009, 02:57 PM

I must say I am overwhelmed by the responses so far.
I am going to ask more questions. Now the ammunition!

policeluger · 02-10-2009, 03:32 PM

I just sit here stunned by this entire thread, it is of what dreams are made of....thanks so much for sharing......

02-09-2009, 12:58 AM	#1
Piet User Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: South Africa Posts: 143 Thanks: 155 Thanked 35 Times in 22 Posts	DWM 1911 Namibia I have a DWM 1911 Luger. Originally confiscated by a Boer Sergeant in Namibia (South West Africa) in the 1914 war between the Britts and Germany in Namibia. As South Africa was a British Colony, the Boers had to join the fight. The Boer Sergeant was my great grandfather. The Luger was taken from a German Sergeant who was commander of a machine gun post. (Or so the story goes) The serial number is 199 and all the parts have 99 on it. At the back of the grip (bottom) is LP 366 Can anyone tell me about this LP 366 and what it means? Piet (South Africa)

02-09-2009, 01:26 AM	#2
Jan C Still User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Box 240188, Douglas, Alaska, 99824 Posts: 463 Thanks: 0 Thanked 52 Times in 32 Posts	Piet 1911 DWM, sn 199f, marked LP / 336 on its back strap. This signifies: Landespolizei Deutsch-Sudwest Afrika. These were issued to the Schutztruppe officers of Deutsch Sud-West-Afrika (see Central Powers Pistols page 279 and 280. The Landespolizei Deutsch-Sudwest Afrika Lugers consisted of DWM and Erfurt military Lugers dated 1911. This is a rare treasure that is a part of history. Only a few are reported in the United States, Please post photographs. Jan What is the suffix on the front of the frame? Last edited by Jan C Still; 02-09-2009 at 03:54 PM.

02-09-2009, 11:05 AM	#4
Piet User Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: South Africa Posts: 143 Thanks: 155 Thanked 35 Times in 22 Posts	1911Namibia Some photos of 1911 DWM LP 366. The WR number was "punched" by some idiot, to take it up in the South African "Wapenregister" or Weapon Register, when all firearms had to be registered. (I do not know when) I could not get a good photo of the suffix on the front of the frame - I will try again later. Piet Attached Thumbnails

02-09-2009, 02:00 PM	#9
Piet User Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: South Africa Posts: 143 Thanks: 155 Thanked 35 Times in 22 Posts	Piet1911Namib George See photos of front of frame As you said it would be! f I am not full time on internet. No markings that I can find on Holster accept ink mark in holster 190. Magazines numbers248 f and 432 f Attached Thumbnails

02-09-2009, 10:40 PM	#16
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	Period documents indicate there were 442 P08s in the inventory of the LPDSWA in October 1912. With this new one, I have recorded 18 -- about 4% of the original number. This is a relatively high "survival rate" compared with other German police units. These will be covered in some detail in my forthcoming book History Writ in Steel. Thanks very much for posting this Piet. __________________ Regards, Don donmaus1@aol.com Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com

02-09-2009, 09:04 AM	#3
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,769 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	Piet, you have a real treasure as Jan says. Like you, I have a 1911 P08 property marked to the Landespolizei DSWA. Mine is a close cousin to yours being only four numbers off, LP370.

02-09-2009, 11:15 AM	#5
Piet User Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: South Africa Posts: 143 Thanks: 155 Thanked 35 Times in 22 Posts	Amazing that the numbers are so near to each other! Do you have other information on these Lugers?

02-09-2009, 11:18 AM	#6
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,769 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	Piet, it's a beautiful piece. I would bet that the full serial number is 199f. Is there a serial number on the magazine? If so are the numbers small or large? Do you have any details of the story of your great grandfather and where he was when he took the pistol?

02-09-2009, 11:27 AM	#7
Piet User Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: South Africa Posts: 143 Thanks: 155 Thanked 35 Times in 22 Posts	It could be an f under the 199 It is very small. I will try to send a photo later. We do not know where the incident with the German sargeant happened. The weapon is in good condition. I still have the holster and a few bullets, as well as the small steel tool.

02-09-2009, 12:24 PM	#8
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,769 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	Will you post photos of the holster and report any markings in or on the holster? May we also see photos of the tool and any markings it has?

02-09-2009, 02:14 PM	#10
Jan C Still User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Box 240188, Douglas, Alaska, 99824 Posts: 463 Thanks: 0 Thanked 52 Times in 32 Posts	Piet thanks for the excellent photographs. The book Central Powers Pistols has some information on these 1911 dated Lugers and the Deutsch Sud-West-Afrika Shutztruppe during World War I (pages 279 and 280). German SW Africa surrendered on 9 July 1915 with 1,331 killed. Jan The Great War in Africa by Byron Farwell is an excellent reference on the conflict between South Africa and German SW Africa during World War I. As George said the suffix is an "f".

02-09-2009, 02:57 PM	#11
Piet User Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: South Africa Posts: 143 Thanks: 155 Thanked 35 Times in 22 Posts	Thank you Jan. You have a name that is common to us. "Jan" is as Afrikaans as Koos or Piet. Thanks for your input. Piet

02-09-2009, 03:02 PM	#12
Piet User Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: South Africa Posts: 143 Thanks: 155 Thanked 35 Times in 22 Posts	George, The letters on the magazines are about 2,5mm high (stamped in the wooden base) 248 f and 432 f (I have mastered to recognise the f - thanks) What does it means. Has it anything to do with the proof marks on the frame (2x fancy F's with Crowns on top and an eagle) Piet

02-09-2009, 04:22 PM	#13
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	piet, the front suffix is totally differnet than the proof marks on the right. At the time, every 10,000 lugers were made, a new suffix was added, so; serial number 1 sn 2 sn 3 .... sn 9999 sn 1a sn 2a .... 9999a up to sn 9999e sn 1f sn 2f up to your numbers 248f etc. Ed

02-09-2009, 04:40 PM	#14
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,769 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	Piet, thank you for the additional photographs. You give the data bases a great deal of good information with what you have shared with us so far. Mr Jeff Noll's book "Imperial German Regimental Marking" lists three 1911 DWM P08's unit marked to the Landespolizei DSWA. Adding mine and yours as well as your two magazines the list is... 9656e LP157 9772e LP370 9844e LP343 166f LP335 199f LP366 248f mag only 432f mag only There are also six 1911 Erfurt P08's recorded that are marked to the Landespolizei DSWA.

02-09-2009, 10:12 PM	#15
RockinWR User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: D/FW, Tx Posts: 278 Thanks: 109 Thanked 30 Times in 15 Posts	Piet & George, * This may be of interest from a previous thread: http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...ghlight=Africa Respectfully, Bob

02-10-2009, 01:44 AM	#17
Jan C Still User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Box 240188, Douglas, Alaska, 99824 Posts: 463 Thanks: 0 Thanked 52 Times in 32 Posts	Piet More information on the German SW Africa Police Lugers: German Southwest African Police Lugerkeoki7 http://luger.gunboards.com/showthread.php?t=714 1911 DWM ID and value? http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...ghlight=Africa Jan

02-10-2009, 02:46 PM	#18
Piet User Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: South Africa Posts: 143 Thanks: 155 Thanked 35 Times in 22 Posts	Amazing, where do you guys get all the knowledge! I cant ceep up with all the information

02-10-2009, 02:57 PM	#19
Piet User Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: South Africa Posts: 143 Thanks: 155 Thanked 35 Times in 22 Posts	The saga of 1911 Nabib -new info I must say I am overwhelmed by the responses so far. I am going to ask more questions. Now the ammunition! Attached Thumbnails

02-10-2009, 03:32 PM	#20
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	I just sit here stunned by this entire thread, it is of what dreams are made of....thanks so much for sharing......