Single shot .22 Luger - Page 2

the gunman · 01-12-2006, 05:26 PM

New one on me as well

wlyon · 01-12-2006, 08:30 PM

The only reference I can find on a luger look alike 22 other than Erma is a spanish ECHAVE y ARIZMENDI. They made one called Lur Panzer,but it had a mag. Hope someone can identify this critter.

Your Eminence · 01-12-2006, 08:50 PM

Ron, What appears to be a cross bolt safety at the front of the frame where the take down pin would normally be is an immovable pin. I believe it is used to secure the barrel in the receiver besides being screwed in if it is. When I say immovable, I mean immovable by normal finger pressure. I'm sure it could be drifted out with force. Ron & John, The entire pistol is steel consisting of three main parts except for the movable parts; the barrel, the receiver and the grip frame. John, I'm not sure what you might be looking at when you say you observe two screws holding the top on. Everything on the pistol (frame) appears to be pins and no screws. Here's hoping I've added additional useful info and I'll sit back and observe for a bit. Let me know if you may want to speak to the owner personally and if he's receptive, I'll provide his phone number. Best regards.

Ron Wood · 01-12-2006, 09:02 PM

Ralph,
After studying the pictures, I suspect that what appears to be a cross bolt safety (immovable pin) is secured by the screw in front of the trigger guard (somewhat like the screw that secures the base pin on a first generation Colt single-action). I think that you are correct that it secures the barrel to the receiver. Please do not attempt to drift it out with force! I also do not see the second screw in the grip area under the toggle that John observes. I do wish to speak to the owner if he is receptive. You can provide his phone number in confidence to me at rwood1@elp.rr.com
Thanks,
Ron

Pete Ebbink · 01-12-2006, 10:23 PM

Maybe one of these modified by a gun smith...???

This one is for sale on Bob Adams' web site...

Ron Wood · 01-12-2006, 11:10 PM

That is the Lur Panzer that Bill Lyon made reference to. It has a magazine so it would not have the solid frame of our mystery .22 - too many differences to be a candidate for a gunsmith modification. Also, I believe the Lur is an alloy frame.

John Sabato · 01-13-2006, 09:38 AM

Maybe it is an optical illusion, but I believe that I see a hole at the point in the frame between the grips that would likely contain a screw (lower arrow). and the upper arrow is pointing at the toggle knob, where a close examination shows that the toggle knobs are apparently held on with an allen head bolt/screw of some type...

We are no closer to identification than when we started folks... all we can say is that we know what it is not... the mystery continues... Most fun I have had on the forum lately... with over 3500 members world-wide, you would think that one of us had seen a specimen like this before!

My next guess? ...perhaps a converted blank or starter gun?

Ron Wood · 01-13-2006, 10:48 AM

John,
I missed that screw at the rear of the frame. When you mentioned that second screw under the toggle, I looked inside the frame...duh. The allen bolts are quite apparent and Ralph mentioned that the knobs turn/spin.

It is quite a mystery. I even looked to see if it might have some kinship to my Schimel CO2 pistol, but no luck there either.

Your Eminence · 01-13-2006, 11:19 AM

John, I now understand what you meant by the screw at the rear of the receiver/frame and I believe that is what attaches the grip frame to the receiver. Ron is correct in stating that I mentioned that the toggle knobs are free spinning. I'll have to get another look at it and maybe another couple of pics in an effort to determine if allen head screws do secure the toggle knobs. I also want to inspect the bore and then ask the owner if he's receptive to phone calls. In the meantime, ask away if you have any questions you would like me to pose to the owner. I would like to take this opportunity to say that I'm very glad I could bring this much fun and investigative enjoyment to the forum members.

KS750 · 01-16-2006, 11:31 AM

Hello,

this being my first post to the forum first of all IÃ?Â´d like to greet and thank everyone taking part on such an interesting and informative projekt IÃ?Â´ve found nothing to compare to on the www.

But back on topic right now:

What makes me curious about that gun are the toggle knobs.
They look pretty much like the knobs used on rifle scopes to me.
So the opinion stated in one of the first posts that the gun might be a unique "gun-smiths dream" or so could be the place to start from.

On the other hand the numbering ("1") of certain parts on that gun might also lead to a prototype - but that is more guessed than anything.

Third possibility - explaining the Nameplate - would be that this gun is what we call in Germany a "MeisterstÃ?Â¼ck" wich ist a piece of work an apprentice has to manufacture to show his skills and finally be allowed to lead his own business.

So much from my side - very vague - I know...

Regards,

Christoph

P.S.: My english might be a bit rusty so correct me if you have to - I guess I can take it

Edward Tinker · 01-16-2006, 12:09 PM

Christoph, your english is much better than my deutch!

Welcome to the forum!

eD

Fray Bentos · 01-16-2006, 09:54 PM

I remember seeing single shot Luger-style pistols for sale in France. Apparantly the rules governing a single shot 0.22 pistol with a barrel of a certain length are less rigorous than those for a shorter barrel.

Edward Tinker · 01-18-2006, 04:24 PM

A couple of more pictures Ralph sent;

Large image:
http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...er_i_large.jpg

Your Eminence · 01-18-2006, 06:17 PM

Wow Ed, You did a great job posting my pics and it looks like I'm getting better at taking them. Additional info I noted this afternoon; In pics #1 & #4 above, note the only two frame screws - one in the front of the trigger guard and one in the rear at the top of the grip frame - these two secure the grip frame to the receiver. The receiver has no screws in it and has pins only for the trigger, the rear of the toggle and the one under the chamber area which we believe to secure the barrel to the receiver. In pic #6 above I tried to show the number "1" at the bottom of the breech face but it does not show well. Pic #7 clearly shows the number "1" under the toggle. I noted that the toggle knobs rotate both at once in either direction by turning one, or they can turn independently or even opposite each other if you try to move them seperately. I hope I explained this properly. The clearance tolerance between the two toggle knobs and the cap screws in the center of them is incredible, it's that close. I also noted that the bore seems to exhibit 8 or 9 lands and grooves but we didn't have the proper things at our disposal in order to accurately determine the number. If i'm not mistaken, it has a left hand twist but I can't remember. Again, a big thanks to Ed who did a fantastic uploading job and even rotated the pics for better viewing. I sure hope more folks chime in with ideas or info now.

Your Eminence · 01-18-2006, 06:25 PM

I forgot to ask - if anyone might have an idea of the value of my mismatch Luger which is in good to very good condition with P08 stamped on the side of the receiver, 1938 on top of the receiver in the chamber area and S/42 on the top of the toggle, I'd appreciate an educated round-about guess. Thanks

Edward Tinker · 01-18-2006, 06:47 PM

a mismatch goes from $400-$700, depening on year, how bad mismatched, etc.

$600 is a going rate right now...

ed

Edward Tinker · 01-19-2006, 10:15 AM

In Walters The Luger Story is a picture of a Tucker Luger, made in the 1960's. The picture shows what looks like a prototype, but maybe the finished or 22 long rifle was this one (bottom picture)?

Ed

To compare toggle open;

John Sabato · 01-19-2006, 01:06 PM

The more I see of this gun, the more intrigued I am with it's construction. If you and your neighbor ever get daring enough to separate the grip from the upper assembly, I would love to see detail photographs of the toggle and upper assembly parts... I hope that we soon solve this mystery... This is obviously not a handmade unique firearm. I believe it may be a production prototype. Has your neighbor ever fired the gun? Does it function the toggle to eject the cartridge case? or does it remail locked until you manually open the toggle and then eject the case?

Ron Wood · 01-19-2006, 02:21 PM

John,
Although it can't be determined for certain because of the slight angle of the photo rather than straight on, it does appear that the gun is a locked breech standard toggle configuration that must be manually operated. The forward toggle link to breech block pivot point appears to lie above the line of the rear toggle link pivots. Since the receiver is fixed, there is no "breaking" of the toggle knobs on the receiver ramps during recoil to unlock the action.

Rod WMG · 01-19-2006, 03:27 PM

Any speculations about the purpose of the screw in front of the rear sight? To remove the toggling action?

It looks like someone went to a lot of trouble to make a pistol no one recognizes. I have a hard time believing someone would think this gun would be attractive to the masses, being a single shot. It is attractive to me, both in the sense of being pleasing to the eye and that I'd like to own it, but part of that is its apparent one-of-a-kind status.

01-12-2006, 08:30 PM	#22
wlyon Lifer 2X Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Somewhere in Montana Posts: 2,614 Thanks: 3,140 Thanked 2,519 Times in 939 Posts	The only reference I can find on a luger look alike 22 other than Erma is a spanish ECHAVE y ARIZMENDI. They made one called Lur Panzer,but it had a mag. Hope someone can identify this critter. __________________ Bill Lyon

01-12-2006, 09:02 PM	#24
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	Ralph, After studying the pictures, I suspect that what appears to be a cross bolt safety (immovable pin) is secured by the screw in front of the trigger guard (somewhat like the screw that secures the base pin on a first generation Colt single-action). I think that you are correct that it secures the barrel to the receiver. Please do not attempt to drift it out with force! I also do not see the second screw in the grip area under the toggle that John observes. I do wish to speak to the owner if he is receptive. You can provide his phone number in confidence to me at rwood1@elp.rr.com Thanks, Ron __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

01-12-2006, 11:10 PM	#26
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	That is the Lur Panzer that Bill Lyon made reference to. It has a magazine so it would not have the solid frame of our mystery .22 - too many differences to be a candidate for a gunsmith modification. Also, I believe the Lur is an alloy frame. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

01-13-2006, 09:38 AM	#27
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Maybe it is an optical illusion, but I believe that I see a hole at the point in the frame between the grips that would likely contain a screw (lower arrow). and the upper arrow is pointing at the toggle knob, where a close examination shows that the toggle knobs are apparently held on with an allen head bolt/screw of some type... We are no closer to identification than when we started folks... all we can say is that we know what it is not... the mystery continues... Most fun I have had on the forum lately... with over 3500 members world-wide, you would think that one of us had seen a specimen like this before! My next guess? ...perhaps a converted blank or starter gun? __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

01-13-2006, 10:48 AM	#28
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	John, I missed that screw at the rear of the frame. When you mentioned that second screw under the toggle, I looked inside the frame...duh. The allen bolts are quite apparent and Ralph mentioned that the knobs turn/spin. It is quite a mystery. I even looked to see if it might have some kinship to my Schimel CO2 pistol, but no luck there either. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

01-12-2006, 05:26 PM	#21
the gunman User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Leland NC 28451 Posts: 1,017 Thanks: 1 Thanked 13 Times in 12 Posts	New one on me as well

01-12-2006, 08:50 PM	#23
Your Eminence User Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Leesburg, Fl. Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Ron, What appears to be a cross bolt safety at the front of the frame where the take down pin would normally be is an immovable pin. I believe it is used to secure the barrel in the receiver besides being screwed in if it is. When I say immovable, I mean immovable by normal finger pressure. I'm sure it could be drifted out with force. Ron & John, The entire pistol is steel consisting of three main parts except for the movable parts; the barrel, the receiver and the grip frame. John, I'm not sure what you might be looking at when you say you observe two screws holding the top on. Everything on the pistol (frame) appears to be pins and no screws. Here's hoping I've added additional useful info and I'll sit back and observe for a bit. Let me know if you may want to speak to the owner personally and if he's receptive, I'll provide his phone number. Best regards.

01-12-2006, 10:23 PM	#25
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Maybe one of these modified by a gun smith...??? This one is for sale on Bob Adams' web site...

01-13-2006, 11:19 AM	#29
Your Eminence User Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Leesburg, Fl. Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	John, I now understand what you meant by the screw at the rear of the receiver/frame and I believe that is what attaches the grip frame to the receiver. Ron is correct in stating that I mentioned that the toggle knobs are free spinning. I'll have to get another look at it and maybe another couple of pics in an effort to determine if allen head screws do secure the toggle knobs. I also want to inspect the bore and then ask the owner if he's receptive to phone calls. In the meantime, ask away if you have any questions you would like me to pose to the owner. I would like to take this opportunity to say that I'm very glad I could bring this much fun and investigative enjoyment to the forum members.

01-16-2006, 11:31 AM	#30
KS750 User Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Germany Posts: 11 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hello, this being my first post to the forum first of all IÃ?Â´d like to greet and thank everyone taking part on such an interesting and informative projekt IÃ?Â´ve found nothing to compare to on the www. But back on topic right now: What makes me curious about that gun are the toggle knobs. They look pretty much like the knobs used on rifle scopes to me. So the opinion stated in one of the first posts that the gun might be a unique "gun-smiths dream" or so could be the place to start from. On the other hand the numbering ("1") of certain parts on that gun might also lead to a prototype - but that is more guessed than anything. Third possibility - explaining the Nameplate - would be that this gun is what we call in Germany a "MeisterstÃ?Â¼ck" wich ist a piece of work an apprentice has to manufacture to show his skills and finally be allowed to lead his own business. So much from my side - very vague - I know... Regards, Christoph P.S.: My english might be a bit rusty so correct me if you have to - I guess I can take it

01-16-2006, 12:09 PM	#31
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	Christoph, your english is much better than my deutch! Welcome to the forum! eD __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

01-16-2006, 09:54 PM	#32
Fray Bentos User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: SW Florida Posts: 10 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I remember seeing single shot Luger-style pistols for sale in France. Apparantly the rules governing a single shot 0.22 pistol with a barrel of a certain length are less rigorous than those for a shorter barrel.

01-18-2006, 04:24 PM	#33
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	A couple of more pictures Ralph sent; Large image: http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...er_i_large.jpg

01-18-2006, 06:17 PM	#34
Your Eminence User Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Leesburg, Fl. Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Wow Ed, You did a great job posting my pics and it looks like I'm getting better at taking them. Additional info I noted this afternoon; In pics #1 & #4 above, note the only two frame screws - one in the front of the trigger guard and one in the rear at the top of the grip frame - these two secure the grip frame to the receiver. The receiver has no screws in it and has pins only for the trigger, the rear of the toggle and the one under the chamber area which we believe to secure the barrel to the receiver. In pic #6 above I tried to show the number "1" at the bottom of the breech face but it does not show well. Pic #7 clearly shows the number "1" under the toggle. I noted that the toggle knobs rotate both at once in either direction by turning one, or they can turn independently or even opposite each other if you try to move them seperately. I hope I explained this properly. The clearance tolerance between the two toggle knobs and the cap screws in the center of them is incredible, it's that close. I also noted that the bore seems to exhibit 8 or 9 lands and grooves but we didn't have the proper things at our disposal in order to accurately determine the number. If i'm not mistaken, it has a left hand twist but I can't remember. Again, a big thanks to Ed who did a fantastic uploading job and even rotated the pics for better viewing. I sure hope more folks chime in with ideas or info now.

01-18-2006, 06:25 PM	#35
Your Eminence User Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Leesburg, Fl. Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I forgot to ask - if anyone might have an idea of the value of my mismatch Luger which is in good to very good condition with P08 stamped on the side of the receiver, 1938 on top of the receiver in the chamber area and S/42 on the top of the toggle, I'd appreciate an educated round-about guess. Thanks

01-18-2006, 06:47 PM	#36
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	a mismatch goes from $400-$700, depening on year, how bad mismatched, etc. $600 is a going rate right now... ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

01-19-2006, 10:15 AM	#37
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	In Walters The Luger Story is a picture of a Tucker Luger, made in the 1960's. The picture shows what looks like a prototype, but maybe the finished or 22 long rifle was this one (bottom picture)? Ed To compare toggle open; Attached Thumbnails

01-19-2006, 01:06 PM	#38
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	The more I see of this gun, the more intrigued I am with it's construction. If you and your neighbor ever get daring enough to separate the grip from the upper assembly, I would love to see detail photographs of the toggle and upper assembly parts... I hope that we soon solve this mystery... This is obviously not a handmade unique firearm. I believe it may be a production prototype. Has your neighbor ever fired the gun? Does it function the toggle to eject the cartridge case? or does it remail locked until you manually open the toggle and then eject the case? __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

01-19-2006, 02:21 PM	#39
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	John, Although it can't be determined for certain because of the slight angle of the photo rather than straight on, it does appear that the gun is a locked breech standard toggle configuration that must be manually operated. The forward toggle link to breech block pivot point appears to lie above the line of the rear toggle link pivots. Since the receiver is fixed, there is no "breaking" of the toggle knobs on the receiver ramps during recoil to unlock the action. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

01-19-2006, 03:27 PM	#40
Rod WMG User Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: The Edge of Texas Posts: 514 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Any speculations about the purpose of the screw in front of the rear sight? To remove the toggling action? It looks like someone went to a lot of trouble to make a pistol no one recognizes. I have a hard time believing someone would think this gun would be attractive to the masses, being a single shot. It is attractive to me, both in the sense of being pleasing to the eye and that I'd like to own it, but part of that is its apparent one-of-a-kind status.