Single shot .22 Luger

Your Eminence · 01-09-2006, 01:58 PM

Hello everyone. I'm hoping someone can provide some information on a Luger that was shown to me and owned by a neighbor. It is a single shot .22, 4" barrel, blue, appears to have some age behind it, and with a solid frame except for the void between the grip panels. The bottom of the grip frame and receiver is solid with no provision for a magazine. To load, the toggle is retracted and a cartridge is then placed in the chamber. It is then cocked by placing/resetting the toggle back in battery position. There are absolutely no external makings on this pistol. There is a number "4" stamped on the underside of the toggle. This pistol is definitely not one of the Stoegers, Ermas or one of the John Martz conversions described in the Blue Book. At first glance it appears to be a standard 9mm Luger. I'm not able to post a picture but will be glad to answer any questions should someone have an idea what my neighbor has. Thank you in advance.

Edward Tinker · 01-09-2006, 02:07 PM

Ralph, welcome to the forum.

No markings, proofs or other accetpance markings on it? That is odd, but makes me think it is more a gunsmith dream? As an example, Mike has a 38 special luger look-alike that is completly hand built.

First guess is that it is a rework or simply something to resemble a Luger. Wyatt made a 45 acp, I think it was a single shot, same kind of conversion I would guess, maybe, maybe not based on a actual luger.

Pictures are needed to make a better guess.

Ed

Ron Wood · 01-09-2006, 02:24 PM

Hi Ralph,
As Ed said, welcome to the forum. Sounds like your neighbor may have a Glaser-Francotte training pistol made in Belgium in the 1920s. Is the bottom of the grip frame quite rounded and is there a latch in the left toggle knob? If your neighbor is interested in selling, I am interested in buying. You can send me an email to rwood1@elp.rr.com
Regards,
Ron

Your Eminence · 01-09-2006, 10:47 PM

Hello Ed & Ron, Thanks for your input. I'm going to do my best to get a pic posted but I believe it's going to take some time. This thing is definitely not a look-alike or a rework but I'm going to have to get a better look at it for you. Ron, the bottom of the grip frame has the same general contour of a normal luger with the magazine in place. In fact, when I first saw and handled it, I couldn't figure out what happened to the magazine and why I couldn't remove it (there is none). I should say at this point that although I do own a parts luger, I am by no means real knowledgeable or an expert on them. I don't know if the left toggle has a latch but I do believe the toggle "buttons" on each side turn/spin. I don't believe the owner is considering selling it and I know he doesn't know anything about it but he believes it is extremely valuable. I don't doubt that it has some value but I don't subscribe the the extreme value theory. Keep in touch and I'll try to do the same. Thank you.

John Sabato · 01-10-2006, 10:31 AM

Welcome to the Lugerforum...Is this what the pistol looks like?

Ron Wood · 01-10-2006, 01:10 PM

Thanks John. I tried to find a picture of a Glaser-Frankotte, but couldn't. I am glad you dug one up. I notice there is a latch in the right toggle knob too. I couldn't remember.

If that is not what the neighbor's gun is, I am stumped and will need to see pictures to take another stab at it.

John Sabato · 01-10-2006, 04:19 PM

I just did a search on Francotte here on the forum and found that there was one thread where the photos had not "expired"... I would be willing to wager that this IS what the neighbor has... and serial number 4 to boot. I can't wait to see the photos...

Do you, or does anyone else know how many of these guns are still known to exist? I can think of three sets of photos I have seen... but with my old computer (between my ears) that may just be a dream... I do remember that the one pictured above was sold by the Hermann-Historica auction house in Germany a couple of years ago

Your Eminence · 01-10-2006, 06:24 PM

Hey guys, First off I want to thank everyone for welcoming me to the forum which seems to be a very friendly place that I could quickly learn to like. The Glaser-Francotte pictured above is nowhere near what my neighbor has. If I were to place my neighbor's luger in your hand, you would think it was "normal" at first glance until you tried to remove the magazine which is the first thing I do when someone tries to hand me an autoloader without the action open and magazine out. When I reached for the mag and the mag release button I discovered there was none, only a solid frame bottom shaped somewhat like what a luger grip frame looks like with the mag in place. I should mention that, according to the owner, he received it sans grips which he then replaced with ones he made out of a phenolic material, quite nicely I might add. Also, on the left side of the receiver behind the chamber area someone attached a personalized nameplate (name presently unavailable). Additionally, there is no disassembly toggle on the left side, no mag release button, no safety lever and no rear lanyard loop. Mr. Sabato, please don't place that wager. This is getting very interesting and intrigueing for this tired/retired detective. Stay tuned.

John Sabato · 01-11-2006, 09:51 AM

Okay Ralph... if it is not a Francotte training pistol, I think we have to gently insist that you approach your neighbor and tell him/her what a mystery the description of his pistol has created in the Luger collector's world and request that photos be taken to identify this interesting specimen... He can remain anonymous of course if he so desires, but for a good identification we need clear focus closeups of both sides, the top, bottom, and the front of the frame over the trigger guard...

I still can't wait to see the photos.

Your Eminence · 01-11-2006, 11:06 AM

I hope to catch up with my neighbor sometime this afternoon and take some pics of his prize. My next dilemna will be trying to post the pics here. Wish me luck.

John Sabato · 01-11-2006, 11:08 AM

There is a photo upload tutorial that is easy to follow at the top of the Site Help and Feedback Forum... you should have little trouble posting photos, but if you do, just shout here... we will be glad to provide assistance.

Your Eminence · 01-11-2006, 06:41 PM

Gentlemen, This evening I was successful in catching up with my neighbor who allowed me to photograph his pistol. I will be posting six pics for your perusal sometime late this evening or sometime tomorrow (hopefully). As I have dial-up it is going to take me a bit of time so please bear with me. Also be advised that I'm not much of a photographer but I try. At this time I would like to correct some info I gave you and provide some additional info. I mentioned that the number 4 appeared under the toggle but in actuality it is the number 1 which also appears on the breech face. I hope this shows up in the photo. The nameplate on the left side of the receiver is engraved "A. Montgomery" and under that is ".22 Cal." & "V 55" or possibly "V 155". The 1 between the V and the 55 is possibly a scratch. Also on the left side of the receiver above the grip panel is a serrated sliding button which we believe to be a safety. I cannot thank you gentlemen enough for assisiting me in trying to identify this pistol as I really appreciate it. As I said earlier, please bear with me while waiting for the photos to be posted. Kindest regards.

Your Eminence · 01-11-2006, 09:18 PM

Need some help fellas. I've got the pics saved in "my pictures" and uploaded to photobucket but when I try to upload them here I get an "upload error" that says "maximum file size exceeded, file may be no larger than 200KB (200000 bytes)". If you may know what the problem is and can explain it to me, make sure that you explain it as if I was reading Uploading for Dummies. Thanks.

jamese · 01-12-2006, 06:49 AM

And the anticipation grows...........

Stay tuned !

Jim

Edward Tinker · 01-12-2006, 12:52 PM

Pictures for show and tell:

Large Left side picture:
http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/22_luger.jpg

Large right side:
http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...right_side.jpg

I believe more on the way.

Ed

Your Eminence · 01-12-2006, 02:01 PM

Ed, By now you should have received all six pics. Sorry that it took me so long to get them to you but with my dial-up I can only send one at a time. Once they are all posted I'll be very interested in everyone's comments. Now it's time for me to be patient. I will have to leave here for a while but will return later this afternoon or this evening. Thanks again to everyone for everything.

extra pictures:

c3006 · 01-12-2006, 02:49 PM

I want to be the first to say I DUNNO

Herb · 01-12-2006, 03:08 PM

Velly intelestinck!

Ron Wood · 01-12-2006, 04:19 PM

A real puzzler. R. Alexander Montgomery is/was a noted collector, but I doubt that this piece can be attributed to him since it is marked "A. Montgomery". If it was his or he had anything to do with it, the marking would most likely be at least "R.A. Montgomery".
The frame appears to be steel...is it? The function of the two buttons is not clear. The rectangular sliding button could be a safety or a toggle lock. The round checkered button under the chamber area looks out of place to be a cross-bolt safety, so I have no idea what it is for.
It appears to by quite well made, but for the moment I haven't any clue as to its origin. Time to dig out the books!
My interest in buying still remains, although not as keen as it would have been if the gun was a Glaser-Frankotte.

John Sabato · 01-12-2006, 05:07 PM

I am also intrigued... I have studied Lugers for about 45 years and have never seen anything like this... it is obviously a Luger Look-alike, and not a Luger.

Ron,

The nameplate is obviously a post-manufacture addition...

I would be very interested to know if the frame is ferrous material (Steel) or non-ferrous (aluminum or some other such lightweight material)... since the frame obviously suffers little stress in firing since there is no movement. The frame appears to be cast to me...at least in these photos.

I believe the two pins (one through the frame ears, and one just above where the takedown lever normally is) are used for two functions. Both pins appear hold the toggle action to the lower frame, and the rear pin also functions as the pivot for the rear of the toggle. I concur that the slide mechanism must be a safety device, and would presume that the sear appears on the bottom of the breechblock since there is no magazine to contend with...

Looking forward for anything that anyone might be able to document about this very unusual gun...

P.S. Could this possibly be an antique "toy" cap gun that has been cleverly adapted to fire single shot .22 LR ????

What does the rear view of the gun look like behind the toggle?

I can also see (after several minutes of studying the photos) that there are two screws holding the top on... one in the grip area under the toggle, and one on the bottom of the frame in front of the trigger guard...

01-09-2006, 01:58 PM	#1
Your Eminence User Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Leesburg, Fl. Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Single shot .22 Luger Hello everyone. I'm hoping someone can provide some information on a Luger that was shown to me and owned by a neighbor. It is a single shot .22, 4" barrel, blue, appears to have some age behind it, and with a solid frame except for the void between the grip panels. The bottom of the grip frame and receiver is solid with no provision for a magazine. To load, the toggle is retracted and a cartridge is then placed in the chamber. It is then cocked by placing/resetting the toggle back in battery position. There are absolutely no external makings on this pistol. There is a number "4" stamped on the underside of the toggle. This pistol is definitely not one of the Stoegers, Ermas or one of the John Martz conversions described in the Blue Book. At first glance it appears to be a standard 9mm Luger. I'm not able to post a picture but will be glad to answer any questions should someone have an idea what my neighbor has. Thank you in advance.

01-09-2006, 02:24 PM	#3
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	Hi Ralph, As Ed said, welcome to the forum. Sounds like your neighbor may have a Glaser-Francotte training pistol made in Belgium in the 1920s. Is the bottom of the grip frame quite rounded and is there a latch in the left toggle knob? If your neighbor is interested in selling, I am interested in buying. You can send me an email to rwood1@elp.rr.com Regards, Ron __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

01-10-2006, 10:31 AM	#5
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	The Francotte Single Shot Welcome to the Lugerforum...Is this what the pistol looks like? __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

01-10-2006, 01:10 PM	#6
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	Thanks John. I tried to find a picture of a Glaser-Frankotte, but couldn't. I am glad you dug one up. I notice there is a latch in the right toggle knob too. I couldn't remember. If that is not what the neighbor's gun is, I am stumped and will need to see pictures to take another stab at it. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

01-10-2006, 04:19 PM	#7
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	I just did a search on Francotte here on the forum and found that there was one thread where the photos had not "expired"... I would be willing to wager that this IS what the neighbor has... and serial number 4 to boot. I can't wait to see the photos... Do you, or does anyone else know how many of these guns are still known to exist? I can think of three sets of photos I have seen... but with my old computer (between my ears) that may just be a dream... I do remember that the one pictured above was sold by the Hermann-Historica auction house in Germany a couple of years ago __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

01-09-2006, 02:07 PM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	Ralph, welcome to the forum. No markings, proofs or other accetpance markings on it? That is odd, but makes me think it is more a gunsmith dream? As an example, Mike has a 38 special luger look-alike that is completly hand built. First guess is that it is a rework or simply something to resemble a Luger. Wyatt made a 45 acp, I think it was a single shot, same kind of conversion I would guess, maybe, maybe not based on a actual luger. Pictures are needed to make a better guess. Ed

01-09-2006, 10:47 PM	#4
Your Eminence User Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Leesburg, Fl. Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hello Ed & Ron, Thanks for your input. I'm going to do my best to get a pic posted but I believe it's going to take some time. This thing is definitely not a look-alike or a rework but I'm going to have to get a better look at it for you. Ron, the bottom of the grip frame has the same general contour of a normal luger with the magazine in place. In fact, when I first saw and handled it, I couldn't figure out what happened to the magazine and why I couldn't remove it (there is none). I should say at this point that although I do own a parts luger, I am by no means real knowledgeable or an expert on them. I don't know if the left toggle has a latch but I do believe the toggle "buttons" on each side turn/spin. I don't believe the owner is considering selling it and I know he doesn't know anything about it but he believes it is extremely valuable. I don't doubt that it has some value but I don't subscribe the the extreme value theory. Keep in touch and I'll try to do the same. Thank you.

01-10-2006, 06:24 PM	#8
Your Eminence User Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Leesburg, Fl. Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hey guys, First off I want to thank everyone for welcoming me to the forum which seems to be a very friendly place that I could quickly learn to like. The Glaser-Francotte pictured above is nowhere near what my neighbor has. If I were to place my neighbor's luger in your hand, you would think it was "normal" at first glance until you tried to remove the magazine which is the first thing I do when someone tries to hand me an autoloader without the action open and magazine out. When I reached for the mag and the mag release button I discovered there was none, only a solid frame bottom shaped somewhat like what a luger grip frame looks like with the mag in place. I should mention that, according to the owner, he received it sans grips which he then replaced with ones he made out of a phenolic material, quite nicely I might add. Also, on the left side of the receiver behind the chamber area someone attached a personalized nameplate (name presently unavailable). Additionally, there is no disassembly toggle on the left side, no mag release button, no safety lever and no rear lanyard loop. Mr. Sabato, please don't place that wager. This is getting very interesting and intrigueing for this tired/retired detective. Stay tuned.

01-11-2006, 09:51 AM	#9
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Okay Ralph... if it is not a Francotte training pistol, I think we have to gently insist that you approach your neighbor and tell him/her what a mystery the description of his pistol has created in the Luger collector's world and request that photos be taken to identify this interesting specimen... He can remain anonymous of course if he so desires, but for a good identification we need clear focus closeups of both sides, the top, bottom, and the front of the frame over the trigger guard... I still can't wait to see the photos. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

01-11-2006, 11:06 AM	#10
Your Eminence User Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Leesburg, Fl. Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I hope to catch up with my neighbor sometime this afternoon and take some pics of his prize. My next dilemna will be trying to post the pics here. Wish me luck.

01-11-2006, 11:08 AM	#11
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	There is a photo upload tutorial that is easy to follow at the top of the Site Help and Feedback Forum... you should have little trouble posting photos, but if you do, just shout here... we will be glad to provide assistance. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

01-11-2006, 06:41 PM	#12
Your Eminence User Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Leesburg, Fl. Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Gentlemen, This evening I was successful in catching up with my neighbor who allowed me to photograph his pistol. I will be posting six pics for your perusal sometime late this evening or sometime tomorrow (hopefully). As I have dial-up it is going to take me a bit of time so please bear with me. Also be advised that I'm not much of a photographer but I try. At this time I would like to correct some info I gave you and provide some additional info. I mentioned that the number 4 appeared under the toggle but in actuality it is the number 1 which also appears on the breech face. I hope this shows up in the photo. The nameplate on the left side of the receiver is engraved "A. Montgomery" and under that is ".22 Cal." & "V 55" or possibly "V 155". The 1 between the V and the 55 is possibly a scratch. Also on the left side of the receiver above the grip panel is a serrated sliding button which we believe to be a safety. I cannot thank you gentlemen enough for assisiting me in trying to identify this pistol as I really appreciate it. As I said earlier, please bear with me while waiting for the photos to be posted. Kindest regards.

01-11-2006, 09:18 PM	#13
Your Eminence User Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Leesburg, Fl. Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Need some help fellas. I've got the pics saved in "my pictures" and uploaded to photobucket but when I try to upload them here I get an "upload error" that says "maximum file size exceeded, file may be no larger than 200KB (200000 bytes)". If you may know what the problem is and can explain it to me, make sure that you explain it as if I was reading Uploading for Dummies. Thanks.

01-12-2006, 06:49 AM	#14
jamese User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: South Florida Posts: 789 Thanks: 0 Thanked 84 Times in 34 Posts	And the anticipation grows........... Stay tuned ! Jim __________________ The "truth" is a matter of Perception

01-12-2006, 12:52 PM	#15
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	Pictures for show and tell: Large Left side picture: http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/22_luger.jpg Large right side: http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...right_side.jpg I believe more on the way. Ed

01-12-2006, 02:01 PM	#16
Your Eminence User Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Leesburg, Fl. Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Ed, By now you should have received all six pics. Sorry that it took me so long to get them to you but with my dial-up I can only send one at a time. Once they are all posted I'll be very interested in everyone's comments. Now it's time for me to be patient. I will have to leave here for a while but will return later this afternoon or this evening. Thanks again to everyone for everything. extra pictures:

01-12-2006, 02:49 PM	#17
c3006 User Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: east tn Posts: 526 Thanks: 5 Thanked 12 Times in 5 Posts	I want to be the first to say I DUNNO __________________ Men Accustomed unto thier arms and their liberties will never endure the yoke. James Harrington 1776

01-12-2006, 03:08 PM	#18
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Velly intelestinck! __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

01-12-2006, 04:19 PM	#19
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	A real puzzler. R. Alexander Montgomery is/was a noted collector, but I doubt that this piece can be attributed to him since it is marked "A. Montgomery". If it was his or he had anything to do with it, the marking would most likely be at least "R.A. Montgomery". The frame appears to be steel...is it? The function of the two buttons is not clear. The rectangular sliding button could be a safety or a toggle lock. The round checkered button under the chamber area looks out of place to be a cross-bolt safety, so I have no idea what it is for. It appears to by quite well made, but for the moment I haven't any clue as to its origin. Time to dig out the books! My interest in buying still remains, although not as keen as it would have been if the gun was a Glaser-Frankotte. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

01-12-2006, 05:07 PM	#20
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	I am also intrigued... I have studied Lugers for about 45 years and have never seen anything like this... it is obviously a Luger Look-alike, and not a Luger. Ron, The nameplate is obviously a post-manufacture addition... I would be very interested to know if the frame is ferrous material (Steel) or non-ferrous (aluminum or some other such lightweight material)... since the frame obviously suffers little stress in firing since there is no movement. The frame appears to be cast to me...at least in these photos. I believe the two pins (one through the frame ears, and one just above where the takedown lever normally is) are used for two functions. Both pins appear hold the toggle action to the lower frame, and the rear pin also functions as the pivot for the rear of the toggle. I concur that the slide mechanism must be a safety device, and would presume that the sear appears on the bottom of the breechblock since there is no magazine to contend with... Looking forward for anything that anyone might be able to document about this very unusual gun... P.S. Could this possibly be an antique "toy" cap gun that has been cleverly adapted to fire single shot .22 LR ???? What does the rear view of the gun look like behind the toggle? I can also see (after several minutes of studying the photos) that there are two screws holding the top on... one in the grip area under the toggle, and one on the bottom of the frame in front of the trigger guard... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*