1920 Police Luger ??

[bruce4guns]

Gentlemen: I am just getting back into collecting and found what I consider a neat Luger. I have done as much as I can to identify it, but still have some questions so I am turning to this forum for help.
The gun is a 1920 dated DWM. The Date is in the proper position and does not seem to be a ground down over stamp. The gun is commercially proofed (Crown N) only. It has all matching serial numbers including the rear connecting pin ( Reichwehrminiceri mandate 1932 after production). The grips are not serial numbered but appear to be original to the gun or certainly period to the gun. The gun is fitted with the Schwi (sic) sear safety but does not have a mag safety.
The gun is accompanied by a holster serialized to the gun on the back (13) and with a Crown Anchor Proof. The holster was manufactured in 1918 by Hans Romer in Neu Ulm. It has been modified to Police standard by removal of the original buckle and the addition of the long leather strap with hole and eye. The holster has the following marks on the front S.Ar.I.II.13.
I assume this means Schutz Polizei Arnsberg First Centurion, Second Division or Squad and then gun 13 which is the last two digits of the serial number on the gun also. The gun comes with a pair of matching serial magazines marked 1 and 2 and a matching serialized take down tool. The gun itself has no unit markings on it .
My question is why where the unit marking x d out on the front of the holster? Is it possible that this unit was incorporated into the Army or the SS and the unit markings no longer were of meaning. This weapon is of considerable interest to me because it is an original rig that has stayed together with a 90% gun for 95 years and I am trying to learn as much as I can about it's history from the Wiemar Republic through the second World War.
Any further thoughts or input from this group or comments about the rarity or desirability (if any) good or bad would be appreciated.
Thanks for any input on this item.

[Don M]

Originally Posted by bruce4guns

The gun is a 1920 dated DWM. The Date is in the proper position and does not seem to be a ground down over stamp. The gun is commercially proofed (Crown N) only.

Bruce, to get good answers to all your questions, you will need to post a series of good, focused photos of the gun and holster. As an example of the limits of words only, the above quote includes a significant contradiction. If the gun was manufactured by DWM in 1920 and so chamber-dated, it would have military, not commercial, proofs. It is possible that it was manufactured later in the 20s as a commercial Parabellum, rebarreled for the police and stamped with the 1920 government property stamp. It also may consist of parts from different guns.

I could speculate further based on your descriptions but the chances of error are too high.

You are correct that the holster was converted from a military to a police-style closure for the Schutzpolizei of the Arnsberg administrative district. However, the police marking S.Ar.I.II.13. is a very early marking, predating the extant 1922 marking instructions. As noted on pp. 117-8 of History Writ in Steel, it is probably from the Schupo command stationed in either Dortmund or Bochum; however, there are some peculiarities with similar markings and good photos are needed.

If you decide to add photos, please be sure to include one of the serial number and letter suffix on the front of the frame beneath the barrel. Other views should include left, right and top views of the entire gun and closeups of any markings. Good front and back shots of the holster and any markings as well.

With good photos, I am sure the forum members will be able to answer most of your questions.

[bruce4guns]

As Requested here are some not so great pics, but coupled with the description given might work. The letter under the matching serial number on the bbl seems to be a stylized a.
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[Don M]

Bruce, I'm afraid these photos don't help much. I'm guessing that the serial number on the front of the frame (not necessarily the barrel) is 213 with possibly a lower-case script "a" suffix beneath it. The front of the frame is the only location certain to have the full serial number with suffix. If 213 is correct, the holster is matched to the gun.

The only one of your questions I can address is why the marking on the front of the holster is canceled. This marking was applied sometime in the 1920s, before there was a universal requirement for property markings on Schupo holsters and before the format and location was officially specified in 1932. In 1937, police property marking was terminated. Many police units canceled the markings on guns and holsters and began stamping the serial number of the gun on the rear of holsters.

[bruce4guns]

Thanks, and yes the pics were not great quality. The answer re the holster is perfect and I thank you. The entire rig is serial numbered correctly and yes the serial number on the gun is 213 and a small (what appears to be) a stylized.

[Ron Wood]

It is a bit difficult to tell for sure but I think the holster may be a converted LP08 holster. There appears to be evidence that a stock attachment block was removed from between the belt loops. Is there a double row of stitching holes down the front of the holster where a cleaning rod sheath was removed? If it is indeed a converted arty holster, probably the closure strap is original and only the stud needed to be added. Also, the marking on the back is not a Crown Anchor but rather a Crown/I (First Bavarian Corp).
Ron

[Don M]

Originally Posted by Ron Wood

It is a bit difficult to tell for sure but I think the holster may be a converted LP08 holster. There appears to be evidence that a stock attachment block was removed from between the belt loops.

I agree with Ron. Also, there is no evidence on the front that there ever was a diagonal closure strap and buckle attached.

[bruce4guns]

Thanks. Yes there is a double row of stitching on the front flap. The holster was made by Hans Romer Neu-Ulm and is dated 1918 Definitively not a reproduction. The marking on the back is as you say probably a Crown I. The back of the holster is serialized 213 (the same as the gun).
I cannot thank all those who have participated enough. I now know I have an entirely matching serial number police P.08 Obviously issued from commercial guns in 1920 (crown N only proof mark).
Two matching clips (numbered 1 &2) matching take down tool an matching holster.
I can only assume that the gun was used during WW2 by the police units attached to the army perhaps in conquered territory. For a guy with my heritage not a pretty picture, but history all the same.
Thanks to all again.
Bruce Cohen

[DonVoigt]

Great rig, you are fortunate to have it with both mags and the numbered holster!

[Don M]

Originally Posted by bruce4guns

I can only assume that the gun was used during WW2 by the police units attached to the army perhaps in conquered territory. For a guy with my heritage not a pretty picture, but history all the same.

Bruce, there is no reason to assume that this rig belonged to one of the police battalions deployed to occupied countries. In fact, the existence of a Schiwy safety strongly suggests that the rig remained with the municipal police throughout WWII.