BYF 42 vet bring back?

[th]

I just read over the posts again I want to apolgize if i have cause any problems or stir things up a bit just trying to see if i should buy the black grips on ebay...i will be glad to take any pic's of the inside of the grips if that will help to determine if my grips are corect...again thanks

[Doubs]

[quote]Originally posted by th:
<strong>I just read over the posts again I want to apolgize if i have cause any problems or stir things up a bit just trying to see if i should buy the black grips on ebay...i will be glad to take any pic's of the inside of the grips if that will help to determine if my grips are corect...again thanks</strong><hr></blockquote>

th, you've done nothing except ask questions that you want answers for. This forum is about Luger information and sometimes the questions receive conflicting answers. Then, the true information usually comes out through discussions of the sort that have taken place here. (Even the top experts disagree on some points!)

So, if anything, you've made others aware of what should normally be found on the inside of byf42 grips. No need to apolgize for that!

[Marvin]

Bill,

You know, you have so much information stored in your "Data Sheets" it would be great if they were available to read, but then again, you can't believe everything you read. Yes, My main source is books written by KNOWN authorities, and others from over the world.

[Garfield]

th:

I think that you are agonizing unnecessarily over this point.

Look at it this way; If you buy the black plastics that are on eBay you know, with out a doubt, that they are not origial to your gun! I will repeat some of what that has already been said as you seem to have missed it. Wooden grips are proper for a byf 42, these grips were on your luger, according to your account, when the GI picked it up. They fit the pistol. They look to be in nice shape and match the overall condition of your pistol. While #s and Wa's are usually found on the grips of this time frame such is not always the case. I have seen lugers with wooden grips that were not numbered or Wampt and, IMO, thought them to be original to that gun. I am certain that there are others that would agree that the sole fact that the grips are not marked with such marks does not mean that the grips were not original to that pistol. Given the fact that your grips are not numbered, the only person that could tell you whether your present grips were installed on your pistol when it left the factory would be the person that did it. This would be true even if your grips were only Wampt. Now you will have to make up your mind as to what you want on your pistol, the ones that came with it or something that you picked up off ebay. Shouldn't be a difficult decision, really.

[G.W. Gill]

T.H., Stick around, this is good info. The kind of exchange of opinions we all learn from. There really are true experts here with us. Sometimes they step in and straighten things out when we get a little off track in our learning experience. I am not one of the experts.

Earlier I mentioned the grips on EBAY. I would like to say I don't know the seller, or Aaron, who was nice enough to point them out. I just thought they would go good with your pistol. I looked at the supersized pics and compared the checkering lines starting and ending points with my grips and they seam to be identical. I have a 42BYF #6229H that was made within a day or two of yours. When I learn to operate this camera I am going to contribute to the study on grips the forum is undertaking. I just think those grips would look good on your pistol. They could be fakes but gut instinct tells me they arn't. Consensus seems that you could buy grips to protect yours.

[Jan C Still]

Bill Munis
You might be interested in a post by Tom A. under General Discussion titled Buy Books, Read And Study

"It has become apparent to me that there are several members and contributors (and you know who you are so don't bother wasting time with feeble excuses) who cause forum discord by asking questions and then refuting answers they receive from some internationally known experts who are or used to be in this group. A quick run through of some of the questions indicates that in several instances, the questioner had not read or was not aware of authoritative published material that covered the topic in detail. This is a basic failure to do one's homework."

Then follow the thread down a few posts to see the exact problem that Tom A. was discussing repeated.

Its somewhat similar to the problem that you expressed:

"It must be very confusing for the new collectors to post here and get numerous somewhat different answers as they do not know what to accept and what not to."

One thing is clear, if the poster doesnt know the answer let the reader know that you are speculating. Give the source or explain the basis of your imformation.
Jan

[Edward Tinker]

I would imagine part of the problem is the wide range of manufacturers and so many years the Luger was made.

DWM
Mauser
Simpson
Kreighoff
Mauser

and then under such a wide range of gov'ts, imperial, nazi, commercial, each with their own rules and concerns.

Wouldn't this cause major problems and variations????

[th]

Well when i started this post out I was more concern about the blueing on the gun which is most of the times gets messed with. I appreciate all of the advice but on this one I will probally go with Garfeild. The fit on the grips is Excellent+ what workmanship. This might help shed some more answers to if they are the correct grips:- on the metal on the pistol ( the metal where the grips lay)there is very, very old what looks like dried grease ( it will come off)this old grease has been sealed against the wood of the grips for so long it has went into the wood of the grips makeing it black. I know they probably are to be numbered to the gun But i know thinks happen in factories I saw a P38 last week that had the code printed upside down Now I know that is not correct but things do happen. If they are replacement grips since they are plain Who made plain grips? Thanks I hope someone can answer the question who made the grips if they did not leave a code behind. I think it was some grips that just did not get marked at the factory. again I am new to all this but enjoy all of the input

[G.W. Gill]

T.H., Garfield and Still are the ones to listen to. As Still points out , you have to hit the books, or your going to miss your mark. I think the professors have steppped in!.

I'd like to join you in inquiring about the variations of grips used in the last issues to the german troops. I don't have access to a good reference at the moment.

T.H., I hope you don't mind me jumping in on your thread, the grip discussion really intrigues me.

[G.W. Gill]

T.H.,. LPO8,Dubs and Marvin also are informed members that I missed mentioning. But I believe Jan Still hit the mark!

[MauserLugers]

G.W.,
Thanks for the vote of confidence! Since you apparently do not feel I am informed or one of the members to listen to, I doubt you will put any value on my answer to your or th's question, but I will try to answer it anyway.

Jan Still called me this evening to visit about what has been happening on the forum with all the incorrect answers, and there are a lot of questions being answered wrong. The main thing is making excuses to justify things.

In regard to your question about the Luger grips of late war manufacture, they were just as I stated ealier. Namely, the byf 42's were almost always numbered with the last two digits and had the E/135 proof. A few just had the E/135 proof only. The exception would be to find a completely blank pair at this time. It is possible, -- yes -- but not many. I had byf 42 1766 H at one time with wood grips, 66 inside and an E/135.

As mentioned ealier, each year and variation has different grip markings and has to be considered seperately. For instance, the 1936 S/42's are mostly blank with a very few numbered with the last two digits. The 1939 42's are mostly blank or blank with a E/655, and again very few are numbered to the gun. The 1939 S/42 are almost all numbered to the gun. So each year and variation have there own characteristics and you can not just lump them all together with a general conclusion. Why is it that some are numbered and some are only proofed and still others are completely blank? -- I have no answer and I doubt that anyone does, but the recorded facts are the facts. One explanation would be that the Lugers were assembled in certain batches of say 100 or so and that worker or inspector marked his and others did not. That is only a guess. I have well over 100 Mauser military Lugers and there are certain patterns that can be followed.

The end of Luger production had nothing what so ever to do with blank grips on military models, as there was a contract and inspectors and a certain standard that had to be met. 1942 was not the end of the war, but only the end of Luger production. The Germans were very strict on standards and the quality of fit on the byf 42's is still very good as they were hand fitted to that specific Luger. There are certain guides, or rules, or characteristics that we as collectors have to go by and we know this by looking at examples and recording what we see. You can make excuses for just about anything and say that there are exceptions to every rule, but we as collectors can not do that. Things are a certain way and if they vary from that certain known way, then one has to be leary. In this case, it would be the exception to have a byf 42 with completly blank wood grips. It would be the exception to have a rear connecting pin that was blank. It would be the exception for the holdopen or firing pin to be blank. One can make excuses for all of them being that way as they came directly from the vet, but they are still not as found on as issued variations. And recorded information on original as issued Lugers and rigs is how we learn what went where and what went with what, and leads to books being published.

On the particular byf 42 discussed in the beginning of this thread, I would guess that if they are the original grips that you will find a very faint E/135 on the inside of the grips. These are sometimes very, very hard to see and you need a glass to find them.

Hope this helps you understand the Lugers grips somewhat better. Good collecting.

[Edward Tinker]

Bill, I copied that info down!

I am supposed to go to PR sometime this next month, so I am unsure if I'll make it to your house soon!

I can't think of anyone else that knows as much about Mausers, [img]smile.gif[/img] So, the new guys, they just don't know, as I am learning also. I talked to Jan the other day also, we had a really nice conversation, I wouldn't let him off of the phone! Those unit marked guns are my next look, really interest me, just money and time, right?

Anyway, glad to see you here Bill, we do listen to you guys, lots of experts and others too on this forum!

Take care, Ed

[Jan C Still]

G.W.
I consider Bill Munis a world class Luger expert. I purchased most of my Lugers prior to the period of extensive faking. Bill has had to learn how to avoid bad lugers during a period of extensive faking. Bill is one of the first persons that I would ask for advise on what to look for or avoid in purchasing lugers today.
Jan

[Garfield]

Marvin:

Which of the "KNOWN authorities" that your read stated that most byf 42 wooden grips are not numbered to the gun nor are most acceptance stamped?

Thank you

[th]

I did get the glass out and a bright light ( I study it for a half hour)I still do not see any marks I sent Edward a pic of the inside of the grips you can see where the dried grease is on the metal and where the grips had been on so long it has turn the grips black on the edges(due to grease)it matches perfectly to the dried grease. These grips have been on for a long time . If they were replacement grips how could both of them have been replaced with non marked grips. What are the chance of both grips needing to be replaced? Just curious is there anyone else that has non marked grips on there BYF42?

Added by EBT:


and another of the entire grip.


(in e-mails from Tom, he really is curious as to why his grips, which appear to be original don't have markings and not trying to raise a fuss, [img]smile.gif[/img] ).
From Ed, is it likely they are armorer replacements?

[MauserLugers]

Hi th,
Charlie Kenyon said, "it is what it is". If the fit of your grips is excellent, then leave them alone. (They shouldn't fit sloppy and the mesh at the front grips straps should not protrude.) The fit will tell you a lot if the grips have been replaced as well as the dried grease marks on both the frame and the grips.

[LP08]

The appearance of those grips suggests they have long been a part of that luger. They look original and nice. Nothing at all to be concerned about. Despite some strong rules for lugers, there are many many small exceptions and unmarked grips can easily represent a small exception or wartime replacement set. They are fine as is--no reason at all to replace them and assure the grips are non-original.

[G.W. Gill]

Gentlemen,
Just got home and read the last few threads. I deserved that chastisement. I'm pretty good at putting my foot in my mouth at times.

Bill, I have the utmost respect for your opinion and enjoy learning from your posts. If my posts conveyed anything else it was unintentional.

T.H., I apologize again for jumping in on your thread and then confusing things.