Maybe Time For A Poll...

[John Sabato]

<img border="0" alt="[offtopic]" title="" src="graemlins/offtopic.gif" />

Hey Dok... how did the house transition come out? Did you get the new place up and running yet? Did you actually retire? or are you still consulting on-call?

[John St]

This conversation adds another dimension! When I got a 42 1940 with all matching (complete serial # on the magazine but only last two elsewhere) the thought occurred to me that people might like to find two last matching numbers for mismatched parts with the attendant odds of finding them for sale or trade.
It never occurred to me that my pistol could possibly have a forced match until I read this post.
But then the gun works with all parts--forced or not--better than any handgun I have owned for accuracy and reliability having fired 100 rounds through it (Ball and Silver Tips from Winchester, Gecco).
I can see the merit of "no restrictions" as posted by Wes, but I can also see the possibility of litigation if what is posted here is not monitored and otherwise carefully scrutinized for veracity.

A tough question for us all.

Where do I fit in? I think no restriction is best for my own interest. I feel like I am ultimately responsible for a purchase I decide to go through with. You can't control others' ethics.

I bought my Luger from a trusted gun dealer who had the trust in the original owner to sell the gun for him. It worked out for all of us.

However, there are gun dealers that live their living off of others' trust and lack of knowledge.

I still believe these types deserve occasional retribution, ergo my feeling that you treat a dealer according to his own standard.

John St

[Roadkill]

I have a 1918 Erfurt with a nonmatching bolt, firing pin and magazine. I post a request for a bolt with 05, a firing pin with 05, and a magazine with 05. I get the three parts from three different folks. The firing pin has 05 on it. The seller of the bolt stamps 05 on it but I don't know it. And I swap out the magazine bottom for one with an 05. Does that now mean I have an all matching gun?

rk

[Edward Tinker]

That is the moral question RK.

I say hell no! But then, some can live with it and others can't live with the morality of cheating.

Now to be honest, if it was just a firing pin, then a couple of guys who I know say its okay, as that part frequently broke anyway...

Ed

[Edward Tinker]

Brad, try this from the links and resources area:

http://www.centercustomcases.com/

Ed

[Dok]

Hi Brad,

Ed beat me to the punch... (Thanks Ed)

Dok (aka Les Center)

[Big Norm]

I have no problem with the above description of 'Forced Matches' as long as the match does not constitute an alteration. If an original and correct magazine bottom is put on an original and correct spine, then OK. If an original and correct side plate with the correct two digit number is put on a luger, then that is OK too.

But if someone physically alters a piece than that is NOT OK. Say someone shaves the bottom of a magazine and reapplies a new number in order to have a matching magazine. But the forum can not regulate that. The buyer is the one who must reject that part. That is why there must be an inspection period given by the seller. But the forum can't force that either.

What the forum can reject are things, like dies, that would allow the opportunity to alter parts. For instance, there is currently a die out there to put a proofmark on an artillery stock. This gives the false impression that the stock is an expesive original. The recent discussion of fake navy rear toggles exposed a market on this forum. Advertising the sale of these toggles should not be allowed unless the seller clearly marks that part as a repro so that it can easily be distinguished from an original. We should chastise anyone who will put any date desired on a repro hoster in order to misrepresent that holster.

The NAPCA often exposes these 'cottage industries' and we should feel free to do it too. We should reject ads for these 'cottage industries' whether the ads are from the companies or from individuals.
Big Norm

[John Sabato]

I believe that this forum's discussion of the Navy Toggle/Sight that is being reproduced in Germany is exactly that... Exposure of the existance of reproduction parts... and comparisons of those repro parts with known genuine examples...

There are clear indications that these toggles are being reproduced with modern equipment, but that they do not exactly reproduce the original parts... at least that is my impression so far.

In this respect, the forum has provided a service to the collecting community...

The Lugerforum does not accept any type of commercial advertising... parts and accessories get bought, traded and sold here simply as a service... buyers must perform their own due diligence in anything that they buy...

Announcing the existence of these new parts is not much different that announcing the existence of a new Luger book...

An example of my point: Tom Heller (Lugerdoc)is one of the vendors of both NEW (and used) luger parts that are made in Germany... and his parts make it possible for Lugers that get used to live longer lives...
The "misuse" of reproduction parts to misrepresent a collectible Luger no more makes Tom or vendors like him responsible for the misrepresentation that the gun companies are liable for the misuse and illegal use of their firearms...

Consequently, the Lugerforum is not liable for ANYTHING purchased through the classified services that it offers any more than a newspaper is for things sold via their classified ads...

Lots of our members, including myself would love to have a Navy Luger shooter "look-a-like" and these sights can make that possible...

I'll bet that if the maker of these toggles would produce them in stainless steel, that the owner's of Mitchell, Stoeger, AIMCO and the newest name for the SS Lugers would scramble to have their guns fitted for this new accessory along with a 6 inch barrel...

Caveat Emptor... the collector's best advice...know what you are buying or don't risk your money...

[John D.]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Dok:
<strong>PS: And Dunkle... when are you coming to visit... gonna stop asking soon... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Hmmmm... You asking me or my "better half"???? She's packed and ready... You know me - I'm an old guy.. I need to plan for years - and never do what I was planning to begin with.. It's a by-product of CRS... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Seriously - we are FINALLY planning a vacation for this fall - rather then just me going away alone to Europe or on a business trip... You going to be around???? Your country is the one we fell in love with - it is beautiful.....

[Big Norm]

"Lots of our members, including myself would love to have a Navy Luger shooter "look-a-like" and these sights can make that possible..."

John Sabato,
this is the one and only problem I have with you and another individual. Outside of that, both of you are just super guys.
Big Norm

[jamese]

You can not regulate morality; government has been attempting to do that through out the ages setting standards on what behavior is and isnâ??t acceptable. As soon you set standards or criteria for the ads, then you have to have someone police the ads. If someone is policing the ads and finds a violation, you have to determine what the proper corrective measure isâ?¦and on and on and on.

I collect lugers because itâ??s a hobby and I enjoy the research that goes into collecting. That research includes not only the historical aspect of the weapon itself, but also the reputation as to the integrity of the seller.

I am proud to say, (although I have not met many of you personally), I feel that most of the members of this forum are honest caring people, who like me have a genuine interest in expanding the knowledge base about lugers and gun collecting in general. If you didnâ??t you wouldnâ??t participate in the forum to start with.

Like most of you I too, buy sell and trade parts and I see nothing morality wrong with replacing a correct numbered broken firing pin, hold open etcâ?¦on a matching gun in order to maintain itâ??s matching status. However I do believe like Big Norm and others, that is out right fraud to alter parts in order to achieve that status.

Many people change the main spring on a matching gun in order enhance its reliability, ask yourself does that gun no longer have â??All Matching â?� status ? would it be a fraud to sell the gun as all matching ?

I personally donâ??t think so, but some others may feel differently. I donâ??t think the forum should regulate the ads because when you start to regulate, you also start to limit the free exchange of ideas and that what makes this forum such a great place to start with.

My $0.02

Jim

[Dwight Gruber]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by jamese:
<strong>I see nothing morality wrong with replacing a correct numbered broken firing pin, hold open etc…on a matching gun in order to maintain it’s matching status. However I do believe like Big Norm and others, that is out right fraud to alter parts in order to achieve that status.

Many people change the main spring on a matching gun in order enhance its reliability, ask yourself does that gun no longer have “All Matching ” status ? would it be a fraud to sell the gun as all matching ?
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Jim,

I was going to stay out of this discussion, but I find that I must take issue with your conclusions.

I have nothing to say about the morality of the circumstance. It is a simple, objective fact that a Luger with force-matched parts is no longer a matching gun. It does not have the parts it originally came with, and it will never again be authentically complete. Such replacement is in itself an alteration.

Willfully changing a part such as the recoil spring may not literally change its "all matching" status (definable and verifiable by the existence of serial numbers), but it certainly reduces the pistol's authenticity. And yes, depending on the circumstances of the sale, misrepresenting such a Luger as completely authentic could be construed as fraud.

--Dwight

[jamese]

Dwight,
While I respect and understand your position, and I agree that a person who replaces a part with a correct numbered part should tell the purchaser that the part has been replaced, but in the real world that doesnâ??t happen very often. If a seller does tell the buyer that a part has been replaced, Iâ??m sure when the gun is re-sold that information would most likely be omitted.

I have to ask you a question...... when buying a gun from a known respected dealer or any trusted collector and the gun is â??All Matchingâ?� how does the dealer know if the person they procured the gun from didnâ??t change the a broken firing pin etcâ?¦with the correct numbered matching pin or any other correct matching part for that mater ? I donâ??t think the dealer committed a fraud, because they unknowingly sold a gun as â??matching originalâ?� and if a person re-sells the gun, they unknowingly sell it as a â??matching originalâ?� and so the misrepresentation continues.

My point is thatâ?¦even you can not with certainty say that all the guns in your safe are â??original matchingâ?� unless you ordered the gun from the factory yourself, and it arrived in a sealed box.

In my opinion your one of the most knowledgeable and respected people on this forum. I read, follow and agree with your posts 99.9% of the time. On this issue I think that we both agree in theory that anyone who changes a gun in any way should pass that information on, but those that fail short of this standard I donâ??t think are guilty of fraud.

Sorry for the rambling on��nuff said

Jim

[Big Norm]

The replacement of parts with original and appropiately numbered parts would be impossible to police by a volunter group of monitors. But on a recent discussion on a navy toggle frightened a number of navy Luger collecters who have large amounts of money invested in original navy Lugers. The good news is that it is possible to distinguish the difference between an original and a counterfeit. The bad news is that I often travel 3 plus hours to a gun show and I am not at my mental best. On the forum, with my shoeless feet on my desk and an adult beverage in my hands, I was able to see the difference in two of the three differences. At a gun show, I may be able to see the checkering differences on the toggle. The forum sought and received permission to post pictures of these toggles. So now the German guy selling these toggles knows about this forum and may try to sell these toggles in the classified section of the forum. Other people on this forum may try to purchase, say twenty or more, of these toggles and sell them on the forum. I have been at gun shows where the seller got very mad at me when I showed him that his gun was altered.

I have seen Luger extractors that were cast instead of machined. Very difficult for a normal guy to tell the difference between the two. I am sure that the cast extractors would not have the same life expectancy as an original machined part.

"Cottage industry" individuals advertize that they have dies to reproduce ANY markings on ANY Luger. Actually, any decent machinist can do this. Should the forum help these counterfeiters profit on their evil deeds by allowing adverizing in the clasified section?

ON BOLSTERING
Many guys with children in the house has removed the side plate for safety sake from a prized Luger. The guy dies and the relatives don't know what the side plate is and throw it away. Is that prized Luger now junk because the side plate was replaced with an original side plate with the same two digit serial number?

A guy disassembles a prized and expensive navy Luger for cleaning. The rear hunge pin falls out and rolls into the furnace hot air duct. Is that expensive navy Luger now trash because it now has an original navy rear hinge pin bought on Ebay?

Its true that the forum can not edit all posts in the classified section. It is a valuable and free resource available for our members. But even newspapers edit their classified section. Many will not advertize guns for sale. I believe that all will not advertize meetings for the Klu Klux Klan. We should not allow blatant counterfeiters to cheapen our expensive and enjoyable hobby.
Big Norm

[Edward Tinker]

Big Norm, I imagine that if "blatant" advertising appeared on the classified section that one of the moderators would just delete it, afterall, there is no such thing as First Amendment Rights on a private forum.

Sometimes I am sure I also use this type of forum moderation also:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva"> with my shoeless feet on my desk and an adult beverage in my hands... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">So as long as I am paid by John D., I can continue to work diligently as a moderator...

BTW, here is my (which happens to be my yearly payment also )

[Big Norm]

Ed,
I'm glad to hear of your recent raise. Your contributions to the forum is well worth each penny. <img border="0" alt="[hiha]" title="" src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" />
Big Norm <img border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" title="" src="graemlins/drink.gif" />

[John D.]

Hey Big Norm,

I'm thinking about rasing his "salary" next year... So please, please - do tell him his worth every penny - I only have a few pennies to give out... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[Big Norm]

Hey John D, don't give Ed a big head with fat city pay raises. He is a real great guy just the way he is. I hear that last year he finally made the last payment on his 1966 Mustang. Maybe you could just extend his stock options?
Big Norm

[Edward Tinker]

Aktualy living so near the IdAhow border, I were forced to re-finanse my car for another 10 years,

Ed