Trigger not cocked after firing

[Art]

Hi,


I recently got a '41 Mauser Luger.


Not having a clue about Lugers, I had it inspected by a gunsmith before firing. His opinion: "You got a great shooter. How much do you want for it?"


So... I felt like I got a decent gun for $400.00.


One problem: When I shoot, the first round fires and the next round is chambered properly, and the bolt is closed. But the trigger isn't cocked. If I lift the toggle about a quarter inch and then press it back down, the trigger will then fire the gun.


Any suggestions?? Sure would be nice to find there is an easy (safe) fix for this.


Note: Out of about 40 shots, the trigger was cocked only twice... so it does work occasionally.

[John D.]

Hi Art..!!


Unfortunately, there is not an easy "fix" as what is happening (it sounds like) is that the sear is not engaging the firing pin notch.


It could be for a few reasons - including the sear spring (flat metal) is weak, or the trigger lever is out of adjustment, or that either the sear or the firing pin has been "worked" to "lighten" the trigger pull by an amateur gunsmith... It seems that the impact of the recoil is letting the pin escape the sear (which is why you can **** it manually). If you *almost* fix it - you run the risk of your Luger going "full auto" - which isn't great either


Anyway - my suggestion is to send it off to Thor and have him look at it...


I know it isn't what you wanted to hear - but maybe someone else will have a better idea for you..??!

[Art]

Hi John,


Thanks for the reply. The trigger is indeed VERY light, so perhaps that explains it--a previous owner "tuned it up".


Maybe it's my imagination, but the trigger seems "more mormal" when I dry-fire the gun vs. very light when it's actually loaded. ...probably just me... doesn't seem logical.


By *almost* fix it, do you mean an inexpert attempt to adjust these parts can cause the [shudder] problem that you mentioned?


Thanks!


- Art

[John D.]

Yes - what appears to happen is that the "shock" of the recoil and chambering a live round is just enough to have the firing pin "follow" the action of the toggle assembly. A similiar thing happens on Colt O-frames when the sear/hammer has been "over dressed" (umm - "filed down" at the wrong angle?) and the act of the "slide" moving forward dislodges the hammer from the sear.. Sorry for the analogy - but on a 1911, you can visually see this happening, but not so on a Luger, as there is no hammer...


I think the reason that is seems more "normal" when you dry-fire is that you are by-passing that recoil shock - so the sear and the pin are more firmly engaged.


As for "inexpert" adjustment of any firing mechanism - yes - it can cause an AD (Accidental Discharge) or the weapon can go full auto. What most "kitchen top" gunsmiths seem to forget is that a SMALL amount of metal filed off or a sear cut at the wrong angle can lead to disastorious results.. (One gunsmith who I apprenticed under favavorite saying was "take off *almost* enough metal - as you can't put it back on when you file too far".. )


Anyway - you can remove both the sear and the firing pin - and be sure that both are free of debris or "burrs" - so that both engage properly. If both look OK to you, and the problem isn't apparent immediately - then I'd suggest that you send it to someone who knows Lugers (Like Ted). It may be a small angle cut to get it to fire properly - and well worth the small price, especially in keeping original parts with your Luger..!!!


Hope this helps!!!!


John D.

[Art]

Hi John,


I have already downloaded several documents that pertain to the dis/assembly of Lugers and will get more. I will take it down as far as I'm sure I can get it back... I assume any modification to the sear will be obvious to the untrained eye.


Since it is a shooter and has value as a quality firearm--not a museam piece--I don't mind replacing parts for safety's sake.


Great help. Thanks again.


- Art

[John D.]

Hi Art..!!


OK - taking out the sear spring can be somewhat daunting if you haven't done it before Especially true if your's hasn't been removed for a while!!! But - after the curses subside (and the blood stops flowing from where you have punched your hand with the small flat-bladed screw driver you used to lift/push the spring forward Ask me how I know!! )...


Then - remove the sear bar... You will see the surface that mates with the "lug" on the firing pin. If it's been "dressed" incorrectly, you'll see the mating surface may actually be "curved" slightly. Another trick I've seen is that the "lug" height has been shortened, so the engagement surface is incorrect... Make sense? It's tough to explain without a "Web Cam showing you live video"


As for replacing parts - you may find that you have to replace quite a few before you hit on a fix. The list of parts I can think of that need to be looked at include: trigger, sideplate, trigger lever, sear bar, sear spring, and firing pin.. YIKES!!!


Anyway - let us know what you find, OK?? And please post back if you need info on what you are looking at..!!


Best to you!


John D.

[HÃ?Â¥kan Spuhr]

Hi


As there most likely have been an amaetur gunsmith in your gun just as John is telling you this amateur might have filed on a number of places that you dont know.


You gotta send that gun to someone that really understands the Luger and have acess to the drawings of the triggerparts.


There is no reason to play around with different searsprings and burrs and **** when you not know what you are doing.


This job is as impossible for you as for a good gunsmith without the drawings, casue the drawings is the only way of determine if the parts have been destroyed.

And either is the engagement of the firingpin and the sear correct according to the drawing or do they have to be welded up or replaced.


Here is no choise in betwen and until that is done your luger is totally unsafe.


Best Regards HÃ?Â¥kan



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[Steve]

When you cycle the action by hand, does it fire? Use a snap cap so that you do not damage the firing pin. If it does not fire then, try one more thing. Remove the side plate and press the front of the sear bar. If it fires (DO NOT DO THIS WITH A LIVE ROUND IN THE CHAMBER!!!)you know it has cocked properly and the problem is in the trigger, trigger lever and sear bar not going into the correct postions. This will give a gunsmith more information to work with.

[Thor]

The Luger action closes AWEFULLY fast, sometimes a worn out sear spring CAN be the problem, but not always. I have fix a couple of Lugers that were cocking by hand, but not cockin by the cycling of the gun during recoil by strengthening the sear spring. Like HAKAN said, it could be lots of things or parts invovled, but a worn out sear spring is SOMETIMES a common problem. With a little rebend then tempering at aroung 600 degrees F for a few minutes, it will retain more stength to close the sear within a faster time. Just my 2 pennies worth., A gunsmith is ALWAYS the answer but a gunsmith not familiar with Lugers will NOT ALWAYS have the solution. Depends on the gunsmith. Thor

Art, I would bet that your FP is engaging the sear after each shot, otherwise you would be getting multiple burst, but that the disconnector (plunger in the trigger bar) is not clearing the trigger lever in the side plate. Perhaps replacing your trigger lever or increasing the angle at the top rear, will solve this problem. Tom h.

[G.T.]

A problem that I have found with a Simson rework that I like to shoot, is a loose side plate! The pistol does everythink correctly with the exception of firing! The trigger has travel all the way to the frame, and when you push in on the top of the side plate it will cause the sear to release! I am doing this with an unloaded gun of course...lot's of different experiences out there, good luck...till...later...G.T.

[HÃ?Â¥kan Spuhr]

Loose sideplates is easaly cured with a small hammer.

Just bend the front part of the sideplate and the problem is long gone........

Regards HÃ?Â¥kan

[HÃ?Â¥kan Spuhr]

Sorry Steve


But your advice is pointless.

Just as Ted is pointing out the action is moving extremely fast and if some "amateurgunsmithexpert" sometimes in the past have adjusted the triggerpull by altering the engagement betwen the sear and the firing pin then they will never see the problem while cykling it by hand.

They will maybe not see the problem when shooting a box of ammo either.

But sometimes now and then the gun will maybe emty a mag on less than 1/2 second.


I have said it before and I say it again.

A reliable Luger MUST have the sear and the firingpin engagement parts blueprinted to be reliable and safe.


If you don't have the drawings and the measurement tools please handle over the gun to someone who have it.


Best Regards HÃ?Â¥kan



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[Art]

Thanks for all of the suggestions. I feel that all of them are genuine offers of assistance.


So that we don't end up beating a dead horse let me point out that I realize a truly qualified person needs to perform the repair. Safety first.


So that leaves me with two lingering questions:


1. [ HÃ?Â¥kan ] Do you think a loose sideplate could indeed be the problem?


2. Is there a chance that oil and dirt have built up somewhere and a good cleaning and lubrication will resolve this?


Note: This gun has the LIGHTEST trigger I ever felt on any firearm. 10 years in the military and moderate amount of civilian shooting. This may affect someone's opinion on the above questions.


Thanks to everyone who posted on this subject!


- Art

[John D.]

Hi Art...


Now look at what we started


Anyway - a couple of random thoughts...


HÃ?Â¥kan is absolutely correct when he says to take it to a qualified gunsmith (Ted is probably closer then HÃ?Â¥kan for shipping)...


A bent sideplat typically *prevents" the Luger from firing (the trigger lever can't travel far enough to effect a release of the sear). The way I understood it - you have the opposite problem (like it releases *without* touching the trigger )


Third, in spite of comments otherwise - you can NOT bend the trigger lever to get the proper angle. It is a hardened part, so instead of "bending" - it "breaks" (unless you have a crappy repro installed, which I doubt).


Finally - read all the advice you got and you'll probably end up where we were last night in my first reply when I said "my suggestion is to send it off to Thor and have him look at it.."...


But - it has been a terrific thread!!

[BILL]

I know that Ted can make the old Lugers shoot very reliably and there isn't anyone you can trust more.

[HÃ?Â¥kan Spuhr]

No the loose sideplate do nothing to do with your problems.


THe problems is either a loose searspring or a "adjusted" sear or firingpin, this is also very much proved by the fact that the triggerpull is very light.


I belive the parts are adjusted and the searspring is likely ok, because on a normaly luger where the searspring is removed the triggerpull will still not be extremely light.


Best Regards HÃ?Â¥kan





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[Thor]

I have some luck in repairing them! But I am not a wizard with them. I would bet Hakan and Tom Heller have WAY more expience than me! I am pretty good at strawing and rust bluing but I have just been lucky so far and I ask help from Tom and Hugh and others. I am still learning YANNOO!!

I will make an attempt, but I cant guarantee a fix, but I will certainly try! Thor

[Thor]

Two of those are front sight tools

[HÃ?Â¥kan Spuhr]

Hi


THe Swiss did bend the triggerlever but they had new UNHARDEND triggerlevers that they bend and hardend them afterwards.


So its actually easyer and simplyer to bend the small plate on the top of the trigger and to try to unhardend the triggerlever and harden it afterwards.


Regards HÃ?Â¥kan



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