Mum Luger...

Pete Ebbink · 10-07-2004, 12:36 PM

...be wary of this one :

http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/Vie...?Item=23911305

Dr.Rob · 10-07-2004, 12:50 PM

I understand that Lugers were purchased by individual officers, but they were never issued... so the Mum is likely a fake right?

Pete Ebbink · 10-07-2004, 01:08 PM

Hi Dr. Rob,

Take a look for a healthy (and sometimes heated...) discussion about Mum Lugers back on 3-6-2003 in the P-08 Military Luger section of the Forum. The discussion was titled as "Japanese Luger Story in AutoMag".

Lots of interesting info. presented in that discussion...

I believe these Mum Lugers are still pretty controversial...just wanted to post a heads-up note...for the new GunBroker offering...

Note sure how the seller could offer this Luger as original finish...since the Mum and Kanji characters were more than likely added after the piece left the Mauser factory in Germany...

p.s. Easiest way to find this old discussion thread is to use our "Search" feature...for the word "Japanese" in the Military P-08 section.

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

John Sabato · 10-07-2004, 01:12 PM

I noticed that this particular example sports a "55" on the toggle. This does not match example in Harry Jones book "Luger Variations" on pages 208-209. Nor does it match the last two digits of the excellent photos in the thread you mentioned... the last two digits of that gun were "47"

Pete, I am just curious...if you have the appropriate one of Jan Still's books, could you look and see if the serial number of the example there matches this gun?

the gunman · 10-07-2004, 01:52 PM

From what I understand the late Roger Steel of calif.
had 3 of these made up some 30 years ago. Trying to
find long buryed info I have somewhere on this.

Pete Ebbink · 10-07-2004, 01:54 PM

Sorry...John...won't be at my book for a few days.

Going back to the old discussion thread photos; I think the Mum Luger in the Jones book was "91" (at least the last 2-digits...) and the gun Alain posted photos of had the last 2-digits of "47".

Now we have a "55" showing up. How many of these did the Japanese make...anyways...??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

George Anderson · 10-07-2004, 04:10 PM

In my opinion, these pistols never saw the land of the Rising Sun.

Ron Smith · 10-07-2004, 05:40 PM

John, the ser# in Still's is 78.

Ron

lugerholsterrepair · 10-07-2004, 07:40 PM

" Barrel marked with Japanese writing, which I believe says "Germany 1939"."
Why would anyone, Japanese or not, mark the barrel 1939 on a pistol that was not made untill 1940? Jerry Burney

Ron Smith · 10-07-2004, 08:12 PM

Jerry, I was kind of wondering that myself. Sure did'nt make sense to me.I seem to remember that the Japanese marked their firearms with the year of the Emperor.

Ron

Roadkill · 10-07-2004, 09:33 PM

Anyone ever see a chrysanthemum on anything but a rifle?

rk

John Sabato · 10-08-2004, 09:36 AM

Only in my garden

The last time this discussion was active, I took some enlarged photos of the writing to one of my favorite Japanese Restaurants... the manager, born in Japan, told me that the writing contained two symbols that he did not believe to be Japanese ( I don't remember if they were the first two or the last two), but that the balance of the inscription (as well as I can recall) meant type 1914. I did not tell him that the inscription was on a firearm until after his translation...

dittamedia · 10-08-2004, 04:53 PM

The bottom three mean 14 year. 1940 would be the 14th year of the young emperor Hirohito's reign, starting in 1926. The top three characters look like To I So, I can't make out the middle one. The Mum has the correct number of petals.

Ron Smith · 10-08-2004, 05:09 PM

RK, I had a Japanese cavalry saber several years ago. It had several Mums on it.

Ron

dittamedia · 10-08-2004, 05:09 PM

Add'l on Inscription. I consulted a more knowledgeable person, Teri Bryant, who make the top three To I In (pronunced like toe-een), those katakana are normally used to write foreign words, but are sometimes used for other things. She can't make out the fourth symbol either. The result is still the same, something about the 14th year which would correspond with the date 1940 in relation to Hirohito's reign.

Edward Tinker · 10-08-2004, 09:40 PM

I think that some non-Japanese person picked some letters or were given some letters that made sense, then had them put onto these guns.

I have talked to several collectors and they have said that each time they have had a Japanese person who looked at the letters and universally all have not thought the letters made sense.

Ed

dittamedia · 10-10-2004, 10:04 PM

We can see that some of it does make sense, but still may be a con job. Since we can't make out the fourth character we can't be sure, an expert on Nambus who speaks Japanese, aka Nambulady, did one translation, I recognized the 'year 14' characters, and a Japanese-speaking Asian and a Chinese in my office also recognized the year 14 and characters, we can be sure that there is some correlation between the date 1940 and the'year 14' characters. I would emphasize that Teri came to no conclusions, and didn't know the context. I'm going to forward this url to her.Of course your friend's Japanese speakers may have had the benefit of the fourth character, and even if the dates correspond, of course the whole thing could still be bogus. What do your friend's friends say about the 'year 14' and 1940 date correlation mentioned above? As you mention, the rest of the inscription could just be some sounds slapped on, but it would be nice to know for sure (no, I'm not going to bid on it). The part that I find interesting is the notion that someone would go to this effort, make a correct mum, add half an inscription that could make sense, and then just add some nonsensical crap instead of just making the whole thing make sense. Again with no inference that this piece is genuine in some way..

Leon DeSpain · 10-10-2004, 11:02 PM

Hi dittamedia,

Showa year 14 is actually 1939. Year 1 was 1926. So to get our calendar year you add 1925 to the Showa year. 1940 would be Showa year 15.

The type designation on a Type 14 pistol is for year 14 of the Taisho reign and that would equal 1925.

Regards, Leon

dittamedia · 10-11-2004, 09:00 AM

Yes, I found that out independently just now. Here is some of a message I just got. There is an article from a back issue of Banzai on Lugers with Japanese markings suggesting extreme caution. If I recall correctly, the author's conclusion was that there were no authentic cases of Lugers with Japanese markings although the Japanese did use some Lugers they captured from the Dutch in the East Indies. Another Banzai article (or maybe it was the same one?) concluded there were no examples of authentic mums on handguns despite their ubquitous presence on rifles. I love doing research, and his thread was interesting, even if I was wrong.

10-07-2004, 12:36 PM	#1
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Mum Luger... ...be wary of this one : http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/Vie...?Item=23911305

10-07-2004, 12:50 PM	#2
Dr.Rob User Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 14 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I understand that Lugers were purchased by individual officers, but they were never issued... so the Mum is likely a fake right? __________________ THR Rifle Mod, Former TFL Rifle Mod.

10-07-2004, 01:12 PM	#4
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,153 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	I noticed that this particular example sports a "55" on the toggle. This does not match example in Harry Jones book "Luger Variations" on pages 208-209. Nor does it match the last two digits of the excellent photos in the thread you mentioned... the last two digits of that gun were "47" Pete, I am just curious...if you have the appropriate one of Jan Still's books, could you look and see if the serial number of the example there matches this gun? __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

10-07-2004, 05:40 PM	#8
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	John, the ser# in Still's is 78. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

10-07-2004, 07:40 PM	#9
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,771 Thanks: 4,922 Thanked 3,123 Times in 1,434 Posts	" Barrel marked with Japanese writing, which I believe says "Germany 1939"." Why would anyone, Japanese or not, mark the barrel 1939 on a pistol that was not made untill 1940? Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

10-07-2004, 01:08 PM	#3
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hi Dr. Rob, Take a look for a healthy (and sometimes heated...) discussion about Mum Lugers back on 3-6-2003 in the P-08 Military Luger section of the Forum. The discussion was titled as "Japanese Luger Story in AutoMag". Lots of interesting info. presented in that discussion... I believe these Mum Lugers are still pretty controversial...just wanted to post a heads-up note...for the new GunBroker offering... Note sure how the seller could offer this Luger as original finish...since the Mum and Kanji characters were more than likely added after the piece left the Mauser factory in Germany... p.s. Easiest way to find this old discussion thread is to use our "Search" feature...for the word "Japanese" in the Military P-08 section. Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

10-07-2004, 01:52 PM	#5
the gunman User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Leland NC 28451 Posts: 1,017 Thanks: 1 Thanked 13 Times in 12 Posts	From what I understand the late Roger Steel of calif. had 3 of these made up some 30 years ago. Trying to find long buryed info I have somewhere on this.

10-07-2004, 01:54 PM	#6
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Sorry...John...won't be at my book for a few days. Going back to the old discussion thread photos; I think the Mum Luger in the Jones book was "91" (at least the last 2-digits...) and the gun Alain posted photos of had the last 2-digits of "47". Now we have a "55" showing up. How many of these did the Japanese make...anyways...??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

10-07-2004, 04:10 PM	#7
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,528 Times in 787 Posts	In my opinion, these pistols never saw the land of the Rising Sun.

10-07-2004, 08:12 PM	#10
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Jerry, I was kind of wondering that myself. Sure did'nt make sense to me.I seem to remember that the Japanese marked their firearms with the year of the Emperor. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

10-07-2004, 09:33 PM	#11
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	Anyone ever see a chrysanthemum on anything but a rifle? rk

10-08-2004, 09:36 AM	#12
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,153 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Only in my garden The last time this discussion was active, I took some enlarged photos of the writing to one of my favorite Japanese Restaurants... the manager, born in Japan, told me that the writing contained two symbols that he did not believe to be Japanese ( I don't remember if they were the first two or the last two), but that the balance of the inscription (as well as I can recall) meant type 1914. I did not tell him that the inscription was on a firearm until after his translation... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

10-08-2004, 04:53 PM	#13
dittamedia User Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Northern California Posts: 21 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	The bottom three mean 14 year. 1940 would be the 14th year of the young emperor Hirohito's reign, starting in 1926. The top three characters look like To I So, I can't make out the middle one. The Mum has the correct number of petals.

10-08-2004, 05:09 PM	#14
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	RK, I had a Japanese cavalry saber several years ago. It had several Mums on it. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

10-08-2004, 09:40 PM	#16
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,927 Thanks: 2,026 Thanked 4,525 Times in 2,090 Posts	I think that some non-Japanese person picked some letters or were given some letters that made sense, then had them put onto these guns. I have talked to several collectors and they have said that each time they have had a Japanese person who looked at the letters and universally all have not thought the letters made sense. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

10-10-2004, 10:04 PM	#17
dittamedia User Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Northern California Posts: 21 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	We can see that some of it does make sense, but still may be a con job. Since we can't make out the fourth character we can't be sure, an expert on Nambus who speaks Japanese, aka Nambulady, did one translation, I recognized the 'year 14' characters, and a Japanese-speaking Asian and a Chinese in my office also recognized the year 14 and characters, we can be sure that there is some correlation between the date 1940 and the'year 14' characters. I would emphasize that Teri came to no conclusions, and didn't know the context. I'm going to forward this url to her.Of course your friend's Japanese speakers may have had the benefit of the fourth character, and even if the dates correspond, of course the whole thing could still be bogus. What do your friend's friends say about the 'year 14' and 1940 date correlation mentioned above? As you mention, the rest of the inscription could just be some sounds slapped on, but it would be nice to know for sure (no, I'm not going to bid on it). The part that I find interesting is the notion that someone would go to this effort, make a correct mum, add half an inscription that could make sense, and then just add some nonsensical crap instead of just making the whole thing make sense. Again with no inference that this piece is genuine in some way..

10-10-2004, 11:02 PM	#18
Leon DeSpain User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Plano, Texas Posts: 124 Thanks: 0 Thanked 5 Times in 2 Posts	Hi dittamedia, Showa year 14 is actually 1939. Year 1 was 1926. So to get our calendar year you add 1925 to the Showa year. 1940 would be Showa year 15. The type designation on a Type 14 pistol is for year 14 of the Taisho reign and that would equal 1925. Regards, Leon

10-11-2004, 09:00 AM	#19
dittamedia User Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Northern California Posts: 21 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Yes, I found that out independently just now. Here is some of a message I just got. There is an article from a back issue of Banzai on Lugers with Japanese markings suggesting extreme caution. If I recall correctly, the author's conclusion was that there were no authentic cases of Lugers with Japanese markings although the Japanese did use some Lugers they captured from the Dutch in the East Indies. Another Banzai article (or maybe it was the same one?) concluded there were no examples of authentic mums on handguns despite their ubquitous presence on rifles. I love doing research, and his thread was interesting, even if I was wrong.