Help IDing this pistol?

hermit · 07-30-2002, 12:17 AM

http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/topview.jpg

T
The top shows byf and the number 41 in 2 places.
http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/oneside.JPG

This view shows the serial numbers? All the same anyways and there is an eagle at the top of cocking mechanism. There is P.O8 shown and GEISHERT on the safety.
http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/magview.JPG
[IMG]

http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/magview.JPG[/IMG]
The 1 mag has P.08 and fxq with an eagle marked on it. The bottom is aluminum.
The other side of the pistol has marlings on the receiver that looks like a W with the number155 under it. Right beside them is what looks like an eagle with SS under it. There is a lanyard ring on the back and also can accept a stock. There is also a small eagle on the side of the barrel.
http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/holstermarks.JPG

This is the view of the marking on the holster. I posted in the holster section with the relevent info, but Had trouble with the photos. The gun has been used as you can see, but the rifling is in good shape and is accurate enough. There is also another mag, but it doesnt match the other. I hope this is enough info, and am just curious on it's approximate value and just what luger it is. Sorry about the messy posts, but I am computer illiterare! Thanks in advance and look forward to reading more on the luger. [img]wink.gif[/img] [img]wink.gif[/img]

Frank · 07-30-2002, 01:30 AM

Hi Hermit! It appears that you have a Military Mauser and is called strangely enough a "byf 41". The byf is the Ordnance Code for Mauser and it was made in 1941. The serial number, which is located on the frame front, just below the barrel, would be helpful. It will consist of four digits ending in 74, with a script letter below it. It is possible there is no letter.

The magazine is an fxo, not an fxq, which was the Ordnance Code for the Haenel Company. It also may have the pistol serial number stamped on the aluminum base. If so, that's important.

The acceptance marks on the right side of the pistol could be either an eagle-over-655, or an eagle-over-135, or one of each. This too is important in the evaluation.

The grips, if authentic, are bakelite material and some refer to the Luger as a "Black Widow", but that is not an official name.

The rest of the information is a grading of the finish and condition of the bore. It is difficult to tell from the photos.

Well at least it's a start. <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

kidvett · 07-30-2002, 05:37 AM

Hermit,

I totally agree with Frank on his identification of your Mauser!

As for the grips, if they are original to the pistol, it makes it a Black Widow variation. In my experience, byf 41 Blk Widow's are more common than byf 42's Blk Widows. Those are the only 2 production years of the Blk Widow variation ( aside from a few exceptions...)

In establishing the value of your pistol: evaluate the bluing %, all matching parts? and the bore condition are the prime factors of value.

kidvett [img]wink.gif[/img]

hermit · 07-30-2002, 12:56 PM

Thanks for the info so far, and here is some more numbers I hve found. The serial number is shown both on the chamber? is 3514 with no letter. It also has 3514 on the underside of the barrel. there is another 3514 just in front of the trigger guard on the underside of the gun with 881 under that. all the pieces are correctly marked 14. there is also an eagle over 165 and eagle over 135 on the gun. I looked at the proof marks in the tech section and cannot find the same markings as are on the gun. the mrks show an eagle with line wings standing on a circle with a swastika inside. This mark is on the side of the barrel. I am sure the grips are original, but did not try to remove them. there is a little wear on the grips but not much.
As for the mags, they are both different. You were right--the marking on the mag is fxo. on the first mag there is fxo. Underneath there is an eagle over 37. Serial number is 625. The proof marks look like a slanted line with abackward 6 at the bottom of line.under that is a cross.On this mag the pin at the bottom of the mag goes through the toggle.
The other mag has serial number 724. The proof markings look more like a slanted r with a loop at the bottom. There is also an eagle over 83. On this mag the pin goes through the toggle.
As for the finish, I asked my dad what he thought and says the original finish is still around %90 blue with mostly holster wear. The barrel is very good.
You can see that I know little about these pistols, but do know that all of the wear on the holster and pistol are from the original owner. It sat in a closet since the late 40s. I hope this is enough info to get an ID on the pistol and holster,and wish I could post better pics. Thanks again.
http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/othersideof.JPG

Frank · 07-30-2002, 01:48 PM

Hermit, an eagle-over-165 was not one of the options!!!! I'll bet the number should be a 135, based on the serial number without a suffix letter. That being true, this Luger is a nice one to have. About 4000 of this varity were produced. In late 1941, the acceptance marks were changing from E/655 to E/135 and in this transition, very few were marked E/135. The grips appear to be original, but the only way I can tell is to look at the back side of them.

None of the magazines belong with the pistol. The proper magazines are one with a black plastic base, an unmarked aluminum base, or an aluminum base with the serial number stamped on it.

Now, if you field strip the Luger and the trigger, main toggle pin, breechblock, holdopen lever and firing pin are all stamped with a "14", you have a winner.

If you have a winner, get a black plastic base magazine for the pistol. The value would be in the $1000 range. If the small parts do not all contain "14", then the value drops rapidly to about $700. The grips alone, if original, are valued at about $150, plus.

Hope this helps!! <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

hermit · 08-01-2002, 09:16 PM

Frank and Kiddvet, thanks for the quick replies and info. Again frank, you are correct about the 165; it was a misstype. I hate to remove the grips for fear of breaking them. Is there any way to know what section of the military these pistols were issued to? The fellow I purchased it from mentioned the coastal flying service; but from other posts here, there is no proof that it even existed. From looking at the proof marks in the tech section, is proof 51 actually a swastika in the circle? If so, those are the same proof marks on my gun. I guess it would be impossible to match the holster with the pistol as they could have been made earlier? Thanks again for the quick help guys!! <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

Frank · 08-02-2002, 01:13 AM

Hermit, the swastika in a circle is the standard proof mark that began in 1939 with the tail end of the S/42 and the front end of the Code 42 pistols. The markings are standard military and I know of no connection to any one group, unless it were Kriegsmarine marked and it doesn't appear yours is. There is no connection between military holsters and pistols. The supply people put a pistol with whatever holster was on the top of the box.

Regarding the grips, I understand your concern. The right grip is stronger that the left, so it is recommended this one is removed for inspection. One can observe the back of the right grip and with the magazine removed, you may be able to see any markings through the frame on the left grip. Good Luck and <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

hermit · 08-05-2002, 02:03 PM

Hello again! One more question guys; any info on the holster. Kiddvet mentions in the other section that not many were made? Where would I read about where the different holsters were produced; I've looked through the site and haven't found any info on this year. Also again the all important question -- value? I Guess that's more than one question. Thanks again.
PS. What books would you recommend to a beginning student on these firearms? <img src="graemlins/drink.gif" border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" />

Herb · 08-05-2002, 02:49 PM

Hermit, just about all the info on the holster is already there, the maker, the location and the WaffenAmpt contract number. The WaA142 code was also used by O. Reichel of Lengenfeld in 1937. The 142 code was used by various makers from 1936 to 1942. Your question of books is opening a can of worms, I have 13 by various authors and will refer to most of them at one time or another. I have found I use Costanzo's World of Lugers Proof Marks the most as it contains literally hundreds of explanations of proof marks, their locations, year found, etc. Other references are better at explaining manufacturing, history etc, but lack detailed info on proofs. If you intend becoming a serious collector I recommend that you buy everything that you can find. Many of them are long out of print and will cost a premium to get, if you can find them. I have found that the more recent ones are a sometimes a rehash of the older publications with some updated info added as it bacame available. Hopefully this new info is given based upon a very detailed background of knowledge as a goodly number of downright fakes have hit the streets in the last 10-15 years, and perhaps even earlier, that might be included as an original observation by the author. When this happens a lot of discussion ensues here on the Forum as to who is right as to the correct definition of authenticity and often gets out of hand. A good library will probably cost in the neighborhood of $1,000 or so as the out of print books bring a large premium price.

hermit · 08-05-2002, 03:11 PM

Thanks Herb. I was hoping to find out more of the history behind the date and markings due to the fact that there seem to be many different makers? For example; mine appears to be made in Dresden. I have seen many pictures of others that show different places of manufacture. I guess that is next to impossible due to the large numbers of variations while they were manufactured. As for the books, I guess I'll buy them as I find em!

Herb · 08-05-2002, 03:37 PM

Hermit, your markings are correct for that date and WaA 142 marking. There were at least ten known makers of leather items in 1937. Additionally there were makers that used codes rather than the marking on your holster, such as JOA, which indicted Carl Heinichen, also of Dresden, dates unknown. This info is in Costanzo's book. If you want I can give you a list of my books, which is not all inclusive, as I know that others on the forum have more/different ones than I and perhaps they will be willing to add to it.

Lugerdoc · 08-06-2002, 09:45 AM

Hermit, The most comprehensive book currently available on Luger holsters is "luger holster & accessories of the 20th century" by Gene Bender. Tom H.

07-30-2002, 12:17 AM	#1
hermit User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: canada Posts: 51 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Help IDing this pistol? http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/topview.jpg T The top shows byf and the number 41 in 2 places. http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/oneside.JPG This view shows the serial numbers? All the same anyways and there is an eagle at the top of cocking mechanism. There is P.O8 shown and GEISHERT on the safety. http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/magview.JPG [IMG] http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/magview.JPG[/IMG] The 1 mag has P.08 and fxq with an eagle marked on it. The bottom is aluminum. The other side of the pistol has marlings on the receiver that looks like a W with the number155 under it. Right beside them is what looks like an eagle with SS under it. There is a lanyard ring on the back and also can accept a stock. There is also a small eagle on the side of the barrel. http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/holstermarks.JPG This is the view of the marking on the holster. I posted in the holster section with the relevent info, but Had trouble with the photos. The gun has been used as you can see, but the rifling is in good shape and is accurate enough. There is also another mag, but it doesnt match the other. I hope this is enough info, and am just curious on it's approximate value and just what luger it is. Sorry about the messy posts, but I am computer illiterare! Thanks in advance and look forward to reading more on the luger. [img]wink.gif[/img] [img]wink.gif[/img]

08-05-2002, 02:49 PM	#9
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Hermit, just about all the info on the holster is already there, the maker, the location and the WaffenAmpt contract number. The WaA142 code was also used by O. Reichel of Lengenfeld in 1937. The 142 code was used by various makers from 1936 to 1942. Your question of books is opening a can of worms, I have 13 by various authors and will refer to most of them at one time or another. I have found I use Costanzo's World of Lugers Proof Marks the most as it contains literally hundreds of explanations of proof marks, their locations, year found, etc. Other references are better at explaining manufacturing, history etc, but lack detailed info on proofs. If you intend becoming a serious collector I recommend that you buy everything that you can find. Many of them are long out of print and will cost a premium to get, if you can find them. I have found that the more recent ones are a sometimes a rehash of the older publications with some updated info added as it bacame available. Hopefully this new info is given based upon a very detailed background of knowledge as a goodly number of downright fakes have hit the streets in the last 10-15 years, and perhaps even earlier, that might be included as an original observation by the author. When this happens a lot of discussion ensues here on the Forum as to who is right as to the correct definition of authenticity and often gets out of hand. A good library will probably cost in the neighborhood of $1,000 or so as the out of print books bring a large premium price. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

08-05-2002, 03:37 PM	#11
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Hermit, your markings are correct for that date and WaA 142 marking. There were at least ten known makers of leather items in 1937. Additionally there were makers that used codes rather than the marking on your holster, such as JOA, which indicted Carl Heinichen, also of Dresden, dates unknown. This info is in Costanzo's book. If you want I can give you a list of my books, which is not all inclusive, as I know that others on the forum have more/different ones than I and perhaps they will be willing to add to it. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

08-06-2002, 09:45 AM	#12
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Hermit, The most comprehensive book currently available on Luger holsters is "luger holster & accessories of the 20th century" by Gene Bender. Tom H. __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

07-30-2002, 01:30 AM	#2
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 163 Times in 87 Posts	Hi Hermit! It appears that you have a Military Mauser and is called strangely enough a "byf 41". The byf is the Ordnance Code for Mauser and it was made in 1941. The serial number, which is located on the frame front, just below the barrel, would be helpful. It will consist of four digits ending in 74, with a script letter below it. It is possible there is no letter. The magazine is an fxo, not an fxq, which was the Ordnance Code for the Haenel Company. It also may have the pistol serial number stamped on the aluminum base. If so, that's important. The acceptance marks on the right side of the pistol could be either an eagle-over-655, or an eagle-over-135, or one of each. This too is important in the evaluation. The grips, if authentic, are bakelite material and some refer to the Luger as a "Black Widow", but that is not an official name. The rest of the information is a grading of the finish and condition of the bore. It is difficult to tell from the photos. Well at least it's a start. <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

07-30-2002, 05:37 AM	#3
kidvett User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Montreal, Quebec Posts: 584 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Hermit, I totally agree with Frank on his identification of your Mauser! As for the grips, if they are original to the pistol, it makes it a Black Widow variation. In my experience, byf 41 Blk Widow's are more common than byf 42's Blk Widows. Those are the only 2 production years of the Blk Widow variation ( aside from a few exceptions...) In establishing the value of your pistol: evaluate the bluing %, all matching parts? and the bore condition are the prime factors of value. kidvett [img]wink.gif[/img]

07-30-2002, 12:56 PM	#4
hermit User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: canada Posts: 51 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks for the info so far, and here is some more numbers I hve found. The serial number is shown both on the chamber? is 3514 with no letter. It also has 3514 on the underside of the barrel. there is another 3514 just in front of the trigger guard on the underside of the gun with 881 under that. all the pieces are correctly marked 14. there is also an eagle over 165 and eagle over 135 on the gun. I looked at the proof marks in the tech section and cannot find the same markings as are on the gun. the mrks show an eagle with line wings standing on a circle with a swastika inside. This mark is on the side of the barrel. I am sure the grips are original, but did not try to remove them. there is a little wear on the grips but not much. As for the mags, they are both different. You were right--the marking on the mag is fxo. on the first mag there is fxo. Underneath there is an eagle over 37. Serial number is 625. The proof marks look like a slanted line with abackward 6 at the bottom of line.under that is a cross.On this mag the pin at the bottom of the mag goes through the toggle. The other mag has serial number 724. The proof markings look more like a slanted r with a loop at the bottom. There is also an eagle over 83. On this mag the pin goes through the toggle. As for the finish, I asked my dad what he thought and says the original finish is still around %90 blue with mostly holster wear. The barrel is very good. You can see that I know little about these pistols, but do know that all of the wear on the holster and pistol are from the original owner. It sat in a closet since the late 40s. I hope this is enough info to get an ID on the pistol and holster,and wish I could post better pics. Thanks again. http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/othersideof.JPG

07-30-2002, 01:48 PM	#5
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 163 Times in 87 Posts	Hermit, an eagle-over-165 was not one of the options!!!! I'll bet the number should be a 135, based on the serial number without a suffix letter. That being true, this Luger is a nice one to have. About 4000 of this varity were produced. In late 1941, the acceptance marks were changing from E/655 to E/135 and in this transition, very few were marked E/135. The grips appear to be original, but the only way I can tell is to look at the back side of them. None of the magazines belong with the pistol. The proper magazines are one with a black plastic base, an unmarked aluminum base, or an aluminum base with the serial number stamped on it. Now, if you field strip the Luger and the trigger, main toggle pin, breechblock, holdopen lever and firing pin are all stamped with a "14", you have a winner. If you have a winner, get a black plastic base magazine for the pistol. The value would be in the $1000 range. If the small parts do not all contain "14", then the value drops rapidly to about $700. The grips alone, if original, are valued at about $150, plus. Hope this helps!! <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

08-01-2002, 09:16 PM	#6
hermit User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: canada Posts: 51 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Frank and Kiddvet, thanks for the quick replies and info. Again frank, you are correct about the 165; it was a misstype. I hate to remove the grips for fear of breaking them. Is there any way to know what section of the military these pistols were issued to? The fellow I purchased it from mentioned the coastal flying service; but from other posts here, there is no proof that it even existed. From looking at the proof marks in the tech section, is proof 51 actually a swastika in the circle? If so, those are the same proof marks on my gun. I guess it would be impossible to match the holster with the pistol as they could have been made earlier? Thanks again for the quick help guys!! <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

08-02-2002, 01:13 AM	#7
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 163 Times in 87 Posts	Hermit, the swastika in a circle is the standard proof mark that began in 1939 with the tail end of the S/42 and the front end of the Code 42 pistols. The markings are standard military and I know of no connection to any one group, unless it were Kriegsmarine marked and it doesn't appear yours is. There is no connection between military holsters and pistols. The supply people put a pistol with whatever holster was on the top of the box. Regarding the grips, I understand your concern. The right grip is stronger that the left, so it is recommended this one is removed for inspection. One can observe the back of the right grip and with the magazine removed, you may be able to see any markings through the frame on the left grip. Good Luck and <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

08-05-2002, 02:03 PM	#8
hermit User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: canada Posts: 51 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hello again! One more question guys; any info on the holster. Kiddvet mentions in the other section that not many were made? Where would I read about where the different holsters were produced; I've looked through the site and haven't found any info on this year. Also again the all important question -- value? I Guess that's more than one question. Thanks again. PS. What books would you recommend to a beginning student on these firearms? <img src="graemlins/drink.gif" border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" />

08-05-2002, 03:11 PM	#10
hermit User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: canada Posts: 51 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks Herb. I was hoping to find out more of the history behind the date and markings due to the fact that there seem to be many different makers? For example; mine appears to be made in Dresden. I have seen many pictures of others that show different places of manufacture. I guess that is next to impossible due to the large numbers of variations while they were manufactured. As for the books, I guess I'll buy them as I find em!