Luger Accuracy? - Page 2

Alx · 07-04-2010, 10:25 PM

ok, my "bad".

Mauser720 · 07-04-2010, 11:58 PM

Here's a link to the snow balls shot in the air with a Luger incident which Sieger reported above.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/h/...b-huss-01.html

suum cuique · 07-05-2010, 05:46 PM

Of course 100 years Walther, not 100 years P-38.
This special edition Walther P-38 was sold to celebrate 100 years Walther-Werke.
A very nice, high quality, all steel edition with a nice blueing and nice wooden grips.

But I look forward to buy in 28 years a "100 years P.38" special edition.
I bet it will be a nice gun!
I hope the Lord has mercy with me and my hobby and allows me to live that long.

tomaustin · 07-05-2010, 06:57 PM

..

Alx · 07-05-2010, 07:42 PM

I like that.

John Sabato · 07-06-2010, 08:33 AM

I have personally shot many Lugers and found that all of them could out shoot me. ( a bit of history, I came in second place out of about 70+ shooters at the Fort Gordon Commanding General's pistol match in 1975... and coached the Ft Gordon Marksmanship Unit Combat Pistol Team for almost that whole year, so I was no slouch at hitting what I aim at... That was with an unprepared standard issue M1911A1 that was the luck of the draw out of the arms room).

Even a couple Lugers with very bad bores shot with near 10-ring accuracy. I was astounded. Similar results have been reported here by many qualified shooters. There must be something inherent in the fixed barrel design that puts them where you aim in close clusters.

Reliability might be in question for these old girls because of ammunition or magazine fit, but never their accuracy.

Ron Smith · 07-06-2010, 09:27 AM

The accuracy of a semi-auto pistol is determined by the slide, or in the case of the Luger, the cannon, returning to battery in the exact same place each time. The precise fit of the cannon within the frame of a Luger makes it accurate.

If a 1911 .45 has a sloppy barrel bushing, toggle link or loose slide. It will not be accurate. The critical parts are the bushing and toggle link.

Fred,

I didn't mean any mechanical adjustment to the trigger. I meant that I adjusted to the trigger. In other words I learned how to pull and stage it so that I knew when it would trip.

Ron

Mauser George · 07-06-2010, 10:19 AM

In regards to accuracy, I believe that the problem may be with the shooter, not the pistol!

A few years back a fellow member at the range was complaining that his Smith & Wesson model 29 with 6” barrel was junk as he could not keep the rounds on paper at 25 yards! He had tested just about every type of ammo and all with the same results. He was going to send it back to Smith & Wesson for repair. It is not an easy task to suggest to someone that it is probably not the gun, but more likely the shooter causing the problem.

One of the members at the pistol range mentioned that he owned a Ransom rest and was pretty sure he had the fitted inserts for an N frame with square butt. He would be more than happy to bring the rest to the club the following Saturday and test his Smith & Wesson model 29.

Needless to say the model 29 was just fine as all six rounds with within a ¾” as I recall using factory 240 gr bullets. This settled the question of the revolvers accuracy once and for all!

I would say that this probably also true with a Luger as well.

Regards,

George

Conny · 07-06-2010, 10:23 AM

I believe it's the shooters fault for lousy accuracy with a Luger. Either bad shooting principles, terrible ammo or just a plain old bad shooter.

Do you think for one second the Germans would use an inaccurate pistol for 40+ years?
Every book and article I have ever read states flat out, the Luger is very accurate.

I believe your trolling in the wrong place. Maybe you should go back to knitting.

FNorm · 07-06-2010, 08:54 PM

Ron,

OK. Thanks. Surprisingly one of the best triggers I have is an Erfurt LP.08. One of the worst is a Krieghoff. And yes, I've shot both. But I think the HK trigger spring is the cause. Looks stretched out.

FN

SIGP2101 · 07-07-2010, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRS

The most accurate Luger I have shot is an air soft Luger from the comfort of my living room. I must agree with collectors that Lugers are to be seen and not heard. Leave the shooting to my old friends — the trusty 1911 .45 ACP.

----

Quote:

Originally Posted by larvatus prodeo

On 19 May 1942, SIG tested five contemporaneous service handguns for accuracy in preparation for the development of their candidate for the next Swiss service sidearm, eventually adopted as the Pistole 49 and designated commercially as the P210. This is what they got in 8 shots fired at 50 meters:

* Walther P38: 12.0cm from rest/14.5 cm offhand
* Radom ViS35: 18.5cm from rest/17.0 cm offhand
* Colt M1911: 30.0cm from rest/42.0 cm offhand
* 9mm Luger 06/29: 5.5cm from rest/11.5 cm offhand
* 7.65 Luger 06/29: 5.8cm from rest/9.0 cm offhand

John Sabato · 07-07-2010, 05:03 PM

Boy that must have been an really outta spec M1911 in that test... or perhaps the user wasn't prepared for the recoil of the .45 ACP compared to the other 9mm's and the 7.65mm

Blind Hog · 07-07-2010, 11:06 PM

Well, pistol shot I ain't plus my vision is the pits. If I can see the sights, can't see the target. See the target, can't see the sights.
That said, here's a target I shot a while back. 25 yards, Swiss, 06 W+F Bern, 7.65 Parabellum. I would hate to be on the receiving end.

alterfritz · 07-11-2010, 01:45 AM

I guess it must be the sight. I too have trouble with my gun's sights at short range. I know it's supposed to be zeroed in for 50 meters but our range is only 15 meters so I have to fiddle a bit with the front sight.
I found out that I have to keep the top of the front sight slightly above the top end of the rear sight, otherwise it shoots too low which makes aiming more cumbersome than with modern pistols, but once I found the correct position, I was able to shoot very precisely.
I have a 1971 Mauser with 6" barrel in case that matters.

Vlim · 07-11-2010, 09:22 AM

The 1970s Mauser Parabellum was sighted in and test shot at 25 meters, rather than 50 (as the pre-1948 ones were).

When it comes to accuracy, the luger has no competition. One problem is that most modern trained shooters don't know how to handle it. The inherent inaccuracy and consequent short range use, combined with a pose that is designed to handle these modern low-grade guns doesn't help people to understand the cleverness of the luger design.

'Tea Pot stance' (and the right attire of course) !

Alx · 07-11-2010, 11:40 AM

I just don't like the rear sight v-notch. .'Love the Luger, just not the rear sight.

My "shooters" have the rear sight filed out to a "U".

Vlim · 07-11-2010, 03:38 PM

Alx,

That is one trick you can pull with a Luger that you can't with any other gun. Just bend your arm back towards the body until the sight picture becomes clear. A luger is just as accurate when shot with a bent arm. There is a very nice picture of Georg Luger shooting his pistol at a Swiss contest. The gun is almost touching his nose

FNorm · 07-11-2010, 03:58 PM

alterfritz,

I have the same model luger and have the same problem. Shoots about 3" low at 25 yrds. I'm thinking of filing a freckle off the front sight.

FN

Vlim · 07-11-2010, 05:16 PM

Just raise the front sight a tad above the rear sight. It increases the visibility as well.

saab-bob · 07-11-2010, 11:00 PM

Vlim
Thanks for the info on the correct shooting stance for the luger.

I have always shot lugers with one hand,in the old style NRA target shooting stance.It just seems more comfortable to me.

My dad was taught to shoot the 1911 that way in WW2 by the Army. He was in the signal corp. Of course,as soon as his unit arrived in New Britain,he was issued a M1 carbine! Go figure.

He still has his issued 1911A1. Last time I visited him,I got to shoot it again. It looks and functions like new!

Today I was out testing a bunch of luger mags a buddy resurrected for me.They all functioned fine and my shooter luger was much more accurate them I am!

Bob

07-04-2010, 11:58 PM	#22
Mauser720 User Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Kansas Posts: 535 Thanks: 18 Thanked 49 Times in 33 Posts	Here's a link to the snow balls shot in the air with a Luger incident which Sieger reported above. http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/h/...b-huss-01.html __________________ Mauser720 - Ron "Those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it."

07-05-2010, 05:46 PM	#23
suum cuique User Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: MD / Currently about 9000 klicks east of the Potomac Posts: 497 Thanks: 100 Thanked 47 Times in 35 Posts	Of course 100 years Walther, not 100 years P-38. This special edition Walther P-38 was sold to celebrate 100 years Walther-Werke. A very nice, high quality, all steel edition with a nice blueing and nice wooden grips. But I look forward to buy in 28 years a "100 years P.38" special edition. I bet it will be a nice gun! I hope the Lord has mercy with me and my hobby and allows me to live that long. __________________ Regards, Andy There's No Place Like Home (Wizard Of Oz)

07-05-2010, 06:57 PM	#24
tomaustin Lifer X5 Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: texas Posts: 708 Thanks: 87 Thanked 522 Times in 201 Posts	there is WAY too much logic being offered here to the uneducated comment by JRS. ..

07-06-2010, 08:33 AM	#26
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	I have personally shot many Lugers and found that all of them could out shoot me. ( a bit of history, I came in second place out of about 70+ shooters at the Fort Gordon Commanding General's pistol match in 1975... and coached the Ft Gordon Marksmanship Unit Combat Pistol Team for almost that whole year, so I was no slouch at hitting what I aim at... That was with an unprepared standard issue M1911A1 that was the luck of the draw out of the arms room). Even a couple Lugers with very bad bores shot with near 10-ring accuracy. I was astounded. Similar results have been reported here by many qualified shooters. There must be something inherent in the fixed barrel design that puts them where you aim in close clusters. Reliability might be in question for these old girls because of ammunition or magazine fit, but never their accuracy. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

07-06-2010, 09:27 AM	#27
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	The accuracy of a semi-auto pistol is determined by the slide, or in the case of the Luger, the cannon, returning to battery in the exact same place each time. The precise fit of the cannon within the frame of a Luger makes it accurate. If a 1911 .45 has a sloppy barrel bushing, toggle link or loose slide. It will not be accurate. The critical parts are the bushing and toggle link. Fred, I didn't mean any mechanical adjustment to the trigger. I meant that I adjusted to the trigger. In other words I learned how to pull and stage it so that I knew when it would trip. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

07-04-2010, 10:25 PM	#21
Alx User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Nashville, Tennessee area Posts: 263 Thanks: 5 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	ok, my "bad".

07-05-2010, 07:42 PM	#25
Alx User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Nashville, Tennessee area Posts: 263 Thanks: 5 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	I like that.

07-06-2010, 10:19 AM	#28
Mauser George User Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: New York Posts: 88 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	In regards to accuracy, I believe that the problem may be with the shooter, not the pistol! A few years back a fellow member at the range was complaining that his Smith & Wesson model 29 with 6” barrel was junk as he could not keep the rounds on paper at 25 yards! He had tested just about every type of ammo and all with the same results. He was going to send it back to Smith & Wesson for repair. It is not an easy task to suggest to someone that it is probably not the gun, but more likely the shooter causing the problem. One of the members at the pistol range mentioned that he owned a Ransom rest and was pretty sure he had the fitted inserts for an N frame with square butt. He would be more than happy to bring the rest to the club the following Saturday and test his Smith & Wesson model 29. Needless to say the model 29 was just fine as all six rounds with within a ¾” as I recall using factory 240 gr bullets. This settled the question of the revolvers accuracy once and for all! I would say that this probably also true with a Luger as well. Regards, George

07-06-2010, 10:23 AM	#29
Conny User Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Culpeper, Va. Posts: 279 Thanks: 0 Thanked 26 Times in 13 Posts	I believe it's the shooters fault for lousy accuracy with a Luger. Either bad shooting principles, terrible ammo or just a plain old bad shooter. Do you think for one second the Germans would use an inaccurate pistol for 40+ years? Every book and article I have ever read states flat out, the Luger is very accurate. I believe your trolling in the wrong place. Maybe you should go back to knitting. __________________ Rangers Lead the Way, Duane Leiker

07-06-2010, 08:54 PM	#30
FNorm Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 978 Thanks: 68 Thanked 127 Times in 108 Posts	Ron, OK. Thanks. Surprisingly one of the best triggers I have is an Erfurt LP.08. One of the worst is a Krieghoff. And yes, I've shot both. But I think the HK trigger spring is the cause. Looks stretched out. FN Last edited by FNorm; 07-06-2010 at 08:56 PM. Reason: sp

07-07-2010, 05:03 PM	#32
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Boy that must have been an really outta spec M1911 in that test... or perhaps the user wasn't prepared for the recoil of the .45 ACP compared to the other 9mm's and the 7.65mm __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

07-07-2010, 11:06 PM	#33
Blind Hog User Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: South Carolina & North Carolina, Cape Hatteras, Outer Banks--Live on a sandbar, 30 miles out in ocean. Posts: 37 Thanks: 5 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Well, pistol shot I ain't plus my vision is the pits. If I can see the sights, can't see the target. See the target, can't see the sights. That said, here's a target I shot a while back. 25 yards, Swiss, 06 W+F Bern, 7.65 Parabellum. I would hate to be on the receiving end. Attached Images __________________ Francis Blind Hog aka: VIS35 "Even a Blind Hog sometimes finds an acorn"

07-11-2010, 01:45 AM	#34
alterfritz User Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: California Posts: 63 Thanks: 3 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	I guess it must be the sight. I too have trouble with my gun's sights at short range. I know it's supposed to be zeroed in for 50 meters but our range is only 15 meters so I have to fiddle a bit with the front sight. I found out that I have to keep the top of the front sight slightly above the top end of the rear sight, otherwise it shoots too low which makes aiming more cumbersome than with modern pistols, but once I found the correct position, I was able to shoot very precisely. I have a 1971 Mauser with 6" barrel in case that matters.

07-11-2010, 09:22 AM	#35
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,032 Thanks: 1,018 Thanked 3,873 Times in 1,184 Posts	The 1970s Mauser Parabellum was sighted in and test shot at 25 meters, rather than 50 (as the pre-1948 ones were). When it comes to accuracy, the luger has no competition. One problem is that most modern trained shooters don't know how to handle it. The inherent inaccuracy and consequent short range use, combined with a pose that is designed to handle these modern low-grade guns doesn't help people to understand the cleverness of the luger design. 'Tea Pot stance' (and the right attire of course) ! Attached Images

07-11-2010, 11:40 AM	#36
Alx User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Nashville, Tennessee area Posts: 263 Thanks: 5 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	I just don't like the rear sight v-notch. .'Love the Luger, just not the rear sight. My "shooters" have the rear sight filed out to a "U".

07-11-2010, 03:38 PM	#37
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,032 Thanks: 1,018 Thanked 3,873 Times in 1,184 Posts	Alx, That is one trick you can pull with a Luger that you can't with any other gun. Just bend your arm back towards the body until the sight picture becomes clear. A luger is just as accurate when shot with a bent arm. There is a very nice picture of Georg Luger shooting his pistol at a Swiss contest. The gun is almost touching his nose

07-11-2010, 03:58 PM	#38
FNorm Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 978 Thanks: 68 Thanked 127 Times in 108 Posts	alterfritz, I have the same model luger and have the same problem. Shoots about 3" low at 25 yrds. I'm thinking of filing a freckle off the front sight. FN

07-11-2010, 05:16 PM	#39
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,032 Thanks: 1,018 Thanked 3,873 Times in 1,184 Posts	Just raise the front sight a tad above the rear sight. It increases the visibility as well.

07-11-2010, 11:00 PM	#40
saab-bob User Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: So Cal Posts: 459 Thanks: 774 Thanked 143 Times in 87 Posts	Vlim Thanks for the info on the correct shooting stance for the luger. I have always shot lugers with one hand,in the old style NRA target shooting stance.It just seems more comfortable to me. My dad was taught to shoot the 1911 that way in WW2 by the Army. He was in the signal corp. Of course,as soon as his unit arrived in New Britain,he was issued a M1 carbine! Go figure. He still has his issued 1911A1. Last time I visited him,I got to shoot it again. It looks and functions like new! Today I was out testing a bunch of luger mags a buddy resurrected for me.They all functioned fine and my shooter luger was much more accurate them I am! Bob __________________ "I think,therefore I own guns"