DWM 1911 Namibia - Page 4

Ron Wood · 05-11-2009, 06:04 PM

Piet,
Many of these early military Lugers will have the final inspection mark stamped over a second small crown. This is particularly true of the Crown/Z and Crown/T marks on 1908 First Issue Lugers. The photo of #274f definitely has the small crown and I am qiuite sure that is the case with your beautiful Luger.

Jan C Still · 05-11-2009, 08:09 PM

Piet
Ron gave an excellent analysis. Your 1911 DWM, sn 199f, has Crown/E Crown/E acceptance stamps on its right receiver. Also, 1911 DWMs serial numbers 8821e, 9656e, 9772e and 274f also have the Crown/E Crown/E acceptance stamps on their right receiver. Pages 16 and 439 of the book Central Powers Pistols give more information.
Jan

Piet · 05-12-2009, 03:27 PM

So what you say is that what I see as crown F, is actually crown E?
(my photo's of sn 199f is unfortunately on the previous page (page 3) of the thread) and loose contact when you only go to the last post.
Did they stamp all three marks at the same time or was this a process stamping one by one as certain tests were completed?
Piet

Piet · 05-12-2009, 03:33 PM

I also have a question on the marking on the barrel. Normally I see 8.82 on the barrel, but 1911 sn 199f says 8.83
I know it is only .01mm difference, and I know about manufacturing tolerances. But why then mark it on the barrel?
Piet

Jan C Still · 05-12-2009, 10:10 PM

Piet
I have attached images of the C, D, E, F. and G Reportedly they applied the acceptance stamps as the final inspection/test advanced. GÃ¶rtz German Small Arms Markings, page 107-123
Jan

Piet · 05-14-2009, 01:13 PM

Any comments on the 8,83 marking on the barrel (see previous photo)
Does our reference to 9mm parabellum means the exact caliber is 9mm, or is it 8,82/3 mm?
Piet

Don M · 05-14-2009, 01:19 PM

Piet,

8,83 is the land-to-land measurement of the bore of this pistol, within acceptable tolerances for 9-mm Parabellum cartridges.

Piet · 05-14-2009, 01:30 PM

Don,
Does land to land means - not groove to groove?
Piet

Don M · 05-14-2009, 01:34 PM

Exactly!

Edward Tinker · 05-14-2009, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Piet

Don,
Does land to land means - not groove to groove?
Piet

for some reason I have to always "think" about this one.

It is obvious when I think about it;

Groove to groove is like canyons on a ocean floor; while Land to land is like a jutting of land or peninsula’s sticking up from the ocean floor

That may sound silly to some folks, but its how this mind works that I have J

George Anderson · 05-14-2009, 05:01 PM

Piet, looking at about ten 1910, 1911 and 1912 P08's the measurements are 8.82 with a few 8.83.

Don M · 05-14-2009, 07:20 PM

Piet, another way to look at it is that it was the bore diameter before the rifling grooves were cut.

John Sabato · 05-15-2009, 09:12 AM

Piet,

Here are two extracts fromt the military Luger Blueprints from 1913:

The standar bore diameter is 8.85mm (land to land)
The standard groove diameter is 9.1mm (groove to groove)

manufacturing tolerance is + 0.01mm
or -0.03mm

A CD of very clear images of all the blueprints and including some great bonus drawings is available for purchase in the "For Sale" forum... see the "sticky" post near the top of that page...

Piet · 05-15-2009, 01:56 PM

John,Don,George,Ed
Thanks, it means that land to land the minimum bore has to be 8,82mm and the max bore 8,86mm ? Obviously they tried to obtain the minimum bore in the manufacturing process. It means that there is a possibility to "clean" or recondition it and still stay within limits? (and also leave room for wear)
Piet

klaus 3338 · 06-19-2009, 03:23 PM

Piet, what a nice rig- wonderful!
There are no problems with the acceptance marks. I can show you half a dozen of these marks. I often have seen a smaller acceptance mark under the larger. Nice that the acceptance mark of tool and receiver are the same.
As Jerry wrote: On most holsters is the marker stamp and mostly a date. Your holster is a military one and not a commercial.
Thanks for showing the nice rig with great historical background.

05-11-2009, 06:04 PM	#61
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	Piet, Many of these early military Lugers will have the final inspection mark stamped over a second small crown. This is particularly true of the Crown/Z and Crown/T marks on 1908 First Issue Lugers. The photo of #274f definitely has the small crown and I am qiuite sure that is the case with your beautiful Luger. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

05-12-2009, 03:33 PM	#64
Piet User Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: South Africa Posts: 143 Thanks: 155 Thanked 35 Times in 22 Posts	I also have a question on the marking on the barrel. Normally I see 8.82 on the barrel, but 1911 sn 199f says 8.83 I know it is only .01mm difference, and I know about manufacturing tolerances. But why then mark it on the barrel? Piet Attached Thumbnails

05-12-2009, 10:10 PM	#65
Jan C Still User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Box 240188, Douglas, Alaska, 99824 Posts: 463 Thanks: 0 Thanked 52 Times in 32 Posts	Piet I have attached images of the C, D, E, F. and G Reportedly they applied the acceptance stamps as the final inspection/test advanced. GÃ¶rtz German Small Arms Markings, page 107-123 Jan Attached Thumbnails

05-14-2009, 01:13 PM	#66
Piet User Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: South Africa Posts: 143 Thanks: 155 Thanked 35 Times in 22 Posts	Any comments on the 8,83 marking on the barrel (see previous photo) Does our reference to 9mm parabellum means the exact caliber is 9mm, or is it 8,82/3 mm? Piet Last edited by Piet; 05-14-2009 at 01:14 PM. Reason: Spelling

05-14-2009, 01:19 PM	#67
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	Piet, 8,83 is the land-to-land measurement of the bore of this pistol, within acceptable tolerances for 9-mm Parabellum cartridges. __________________ Regards, Don donmaus1@aol.com Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com

05-11-2009, 08:09 PM	#62
Jan C Still User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Box 240188, Douglas, Alaska, 99824 Posts: 463 Thanks: 0 Thanked 52 Times in 32 Posts	Piet Ron gave an excellent analysis. Your 1911 DWM, sn 199f, has Crown/E Crown/E acceptance stamps on its right receiver. Also, 1911 DWMs serial numbers 8821e, 9656e, 9772e and 274f also have the Crown/E Crown/E acceptance stamps on their right receiver. Pages 16 and 439 of the book Central Powers Pistols give more information. Jan

05-12-2009, 03:27 PM	#63
Piet User Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: South Africa Posts: 143 Thanks: 155 Thanked 35 Times in 22 Posts	So what you say is that what I see as crown F, is actually crown E? (my photo's of sn 199f is unfortunately on the previous page (page 3) of the thread) and loose contact when you only go to the last post. Did they stamp all three marks at the same time or was this a process stamping one by one as certain tests were completed? Piet

05-14-2009, 01:30 PM	#68
Piet User Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: South Africa Posts: 143 Thanks: 155 Thanked 35 Times in 22 Posts	Don, Does land to land means - not groove to groove? Piet

05-14-2009, 01:34 PM	#69
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	Exactly! __________________ Regards, Don donmaus1@aol.com Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com

05-14-2009, 05:01 PM	#71
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,769 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	Piet, looking at about ten 1910, 1911 and 1912 P08's the measurements are 8.82 with a few 8.83.

05-14-2009, 07:20 PM	#72
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	Piet, another way to look at it is that it was the bore diameter before the rifling grooves were cut. __________________ Regards, Don donmaus1@aol.com Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com

05-15-2009, 09:12 AM	#73
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Manufacturing Tolerances Piet, Here are two extracts fromt the military Luger Blueprints from 1913: The standar bore diameter is 8.85mm (land to land) The standard groove diameter is 9.1mm (groove to groove) manufacturing tolerance is + 0.01mm or -0.03mm A CD of very clear images of all the blueprints and including some great bonus drawings is available for purchase in the "For Sale" forum... see the "sticky" post near the top of that page... Attached Images __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

05-15-2009, 01:56 PM	#74
Piet User Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: South Africa Posts: 143 Thanks: 155 Thanked 35 Times in 22 Posts	John,Don,George,Ed Thanks, it means that land to land the minimum bore has to be 8,82mm and the max bore 8,86mm ? Obviously they tried to obtain the minimum bore in the manufacturing process. It means that there is a possibility to "clean" or recondition it and still stay within limits? (and also leave room for wear) Piet

06-19-2009, 03:23 PM	#75
klaus 3338 User Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Germany Posts: 513 Thanks: 0 Thanked 394 Times in 156 Posts	Piet, what a nice rig- wonderful! There are no problems with the acceptance marks. I can show you half a dozen of these marks. I often have seen a smaller acceptance mark under the larger. Nice that the acceptance mark of tool and receiver are the same. As Jerry wrote: On most holsters is the marker stamp and mostly a date. Your holster is a military one and not a commercial. Thanks for showing the nice rig with great historical background.