CCW, a Luger? (Dumb question # 2)

ronin · 07-09-2002, 01:29 AM

Sounds silly but i really want to know if any of you do carry a Luger.
This will fade away certain doubts i have about the reliability and efectiveness of the Luger compared to more modern guns in the defensive role.

Would any of you guys trust them so far as to bet your lifes on them?

Next obvious question for an affirmative reply is what kind of holsters do you use for such a task.

Thanks,

0-0

Edward Tinker · 07-09-2002, 01:32 AM

Ronin, this was brought up before and generally most people said they'd carry something else if given the chance. Not anything wrong with it, just newer guns designed years later.

But I am also of the opinion that a gun that served through two world wars would work against a bad guy [img]mad.gif[/img] but if given the chance I'd grab a 1911A1 or my S&W 25-2 (a .45 revolver) or even better a shotgun!
[img]wink.gif[/img]

Pete Ebbink · 07-09-2002, 02:05 AM

Hello Ronin,

My gun of choice is my P-12/45 Para-Ordinance, .45 ACP, single action, with 12+1 rounds...

Very small, all steel, reliable feeding, and accurate as all heck...

<img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

tipoc · 07-09-2002, 08:35 AM

ccw a Luger? I tried it once with an artilery model. Walked around for a couple of weeks with it till one day a young woman giggled and said "You sure got a skinny thing mister." That was the end of that. In reality though I wouldn't for several reasons. 1. My Lugers are almost 100 years old, a lot of high pressure rounds have gone through them, I would not want something to give when I needed it most. I would want something more recently made. 2. The Luger is a full size service weapon and is a bit cumbersome for ccw, to me anyway. 3. The sights, modern pistols have much better sights. etc. Lugers are beautiful pieces of machining and pleasent to shoot and look at but by the 1920,s better pistols had come along. If I was transported back in time to 1940 I'd pick a Colt M1903 or 08, the Walther PP, PPK or P-38, Mauser Hsc, the great 1911A1, Browning Hi-Power, or the outstanding Radom.
tipoc

ronin · 07-09-2002, 10:45 AM

While i agree with you and personally would and do exactly the same, go for a modern piece in a smaller size, i was curious to find out if any of you would "bet the farm" on a Luger.

Apparently not.

That makes a ton of sense. But you never know...

<img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" />

John Sabato · 07-09-2002, 12:56 PM

My answer for the bump noise in the night gun is an all steel .45 ACP Colt Commander, personally converted for me to a true double-action by Lewis W. Seecamp in the mid 1970's... It has NEVER had a malfunction. I feed it pure hardball loads.

I has been a comforting companion on many a dark and stormy night... (bet you guys are glad I don't write novels for a living!)... but the above statement is non-fiction.

I love Lugers for their remarkable engineering and elegance of design, but my life I trust to this remarkable short Colt 1911A2. (No the A2 is not a mistake, it is my designation for this hybrid).

[img]wink.gif[/img]

Frank · 07-09-2002, 02:57 PM

Ronin, if I were to bet the farm, it would be with a 1911, 45 ACP. I would not hesitate to use a Luger or P38 in good condition. I have found with the proper load each of the latter would do the job nicely. <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

kidvett · 07-09-2002, 03:47 PM

Ronin,

LUGERS would, in my opinion, hold their own in todays assortment of defensive handguns. I do think however that there are much practical handguns to carry as defensive pieces...

Working Law Enforcement, my service piece is a WALTHER P99 with WIN SXT 147gr JHP ammo. Various backups include PPK.s, 38 snubbies and a Beretta 25.

My favorite OFF-DUTY piece is a GLOCK 19 with that same 147gr ammo. I do have other favorites: LWT Commander 45, S&W Magnums, etc

To me, important aspects of carrying a handgun for self defense are: CONFIDENCE & COMFORT.

Sure enough you have to select a good reliable handgun with effective ammunition. 9mm is not my first choice of a defensive caliber ( I prefer BIG BORES & MAGNUMS ) but with good ammo, it does the job.

If I was to go in harms way I'd pick a 4 inch Model 29 with Silvertips....But as an everyday carry piece, being 5'8 & 165 pounds, I'm happy with my GLOCK 19 [img]wink.gif[/img]

kidvett

ronin · 07-09-2002, 06:06 PM

Not wanting to make a poll on an off topic subject here but obviously you all have your other "beloved" and trusted ones.

I'm a left dominant eye leftie that shoots mostly with right handed HK .40 USPs. I say mostly since i do so because guns are designed with righthanded people in mind. And carrying does require, IMHO, a lot of training. I've been a rightie all of my shooter's life but am now training myself to become ambidextrous, i switch my USP right carry with a left carry P7M13 every other day. This way i'm a 100% southpaw. This only to clear the off topic chit chat.

So, no one will consider the Luger. I must confess i'm a tinsy bitsy dissapointed but glad that you guys keep an absolutely open mind when it comes to handguns.

<img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" />

0-0

Doubs · 07-09-2002, 06:17 PM

As I've indicated in another thread, I wouldn't feel badly about carrying a Luger - even a 7.65mm - if I had no other choice. However, my first preference is my 1927 Argentine Colt loaded with Black Talons or Golden Sabres. It's extremely reliable with anything I put in it... and accurate! If I go out at night, depending upon where I intend to go, I sometimes stick a Makarov in 9x18mm or a Tokarev in 9mm in the car. Both are dependable.

Thor · 07-09-2002, 07:26 PM

My Serious carry pieces are a Model 27 .357, H&K Compact 45 acp, then lastly the P.38 in 9mm of course. We have not CCW here (passed it but the NM supreme court deemed it "unconstitutional") Since no CCW, the size is not a big issue. This is usually when traveling in my truck around town.

For light carry I drop a S&W Model 66 .357 snubbie into my back pocket or a PPK either 9mm Kurz or 7.65. This is usually around the house.

When I go field testing in the desert, I alway drag along one of my AKs. Ya just never know!!

I guess you get the impression I am always armed...you'd be right! Aint America great! <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" />

wterrell · 07-09-2002, 09:13 PM

I would not care to have any of my Lugers confiscated and booked as evidence. Policemen take joy in taking the evidence guns down to the range and running a few cases of bullets through them. And you may never see the firearm again, even if acquitted of any wrong-doing.

No, they can have my S&W .44 mag for their fun shooting! <img src="graemlins/crying.gif" border="0" alt="[crying]" /> (Most of my 'carry' is in bear country.)

Heinz · 07-09-2002, 09:13 PM

I like the Luger, it is fairly small and compact BUT I think a dangerous piece to shove in the waistband. For "dark and stormy nights" I like the 45 long colt. I have a Alberti repro of the Remington single action and a 1878 double action Colt rebarreled and recylindered for smokeless. Sigle actions are pretty quick for the first two shots. And when wheel guns jam, you just thumb the hammer again.

But, the Luger would definitely do. Also, like the 1911, it gets a lot of respect when it comes out as the mass psyche accepts it as a serious pistol.

Heinz

wterrell · 07-09-2002, 09:20 PM

Heinz,

As a sidebar, isn't it amazing how the 1911 has influenced the psyche of mankind as to what a serious semi-auto should look like?

ronin · 07-09-2002, 09:43 PM

Heinz,

You just reminded me of a scene in Band of Brothers were one of the G.I. shoots (and kills)himself accidentally with a Luger.

Would anyone care to explain why did this happened or why is the gun labelled as extremely unsafe in that episode? Does the safety not usually work as advertised?

0-0

ronin · 07-09-2002, 09:48 PM

Doubs,

Glad to hear that you like your model 1927. Is it a regular Colt (made in USA for us) or and argentinian manufacture? Have you had extensive work done on it to have it feed non-ball ammo?

I have a Ballester Molina myself but i just like to keep it around, i rather shoot my HK Mark 23 or my P9S if i come across some .45 ammo. Ammo is terribly expensive nowadays.

0-0

wterrell · 07-09-2002, 09:49 PM

With a hammer gun, you can see that it is cocked. Only a fool would walk around with the hammer pulled back. With a Luger, the firing pin is almost always cocked with the safety on when a round is in the chamber. If the firing pin were as obvious as the hammer, it would be a bit disconcerting.

Doubs · 07-10-2002, 01:00 AM

[quote]Originally posted by ronin:
<strong>Doubs,
Glad to hear that you like your model 1927. Is it a regular Colt (made in USA for us) or and argentinian manufacture? Have you had extensive work done on it to have it feed non-ball ammo?
0-0</strong><hr></blockquote>

Ronin, my 1927 was Argentine-made and issued to the National Maritime Police or your equivalent of the Coast Guard. It's all matching and even with a bore that is badly pitted, it's very accurate with both cast and jacketed bullets. The 1927's were "throated" (chamber mouth beveled and widened and polished) during manufacture and mine feeds anything just as I received it. I had it parkerized and the sights changed to fixed combat sights. While I had a new slide and ejector fit so I could use it for .41 AE, 9mm, .38 Super and .30 Mauser, in it's .45 configuration it's essentially as-issued with the exception of the sights. (I also have the barrel and recoil spring for .38/45, a wildcat that comes close to .357 Magnum velocities.) The original slide had the ejector slot widened because the 9mm ejector sits closer to the bore line than the .45 ejector. The 9mm ejector works with all of the cartridges.

I also have two Navy issue 1927's and one that was converted to .22 LR for the police to use for practice. I've not fired any of them.

The 1927 used to be one of the very best buys on our surplus market and could be had for less than $200. The word has finally gotten around that they are very high quality and now they typically go for more than $300.... usually much more. I know I like mine a lot.

Thor · 07-10-2002, 01:25 AM

I must admit I feel more like putting on the small PPK in a shoulder holster after a good JAmes Bond movie, the Model 29 in one after seeing a Dirty Harry movie. A Beretta after one of the Die Hard movies! A Luger or P.38 when watching Where Eagles Dare, Bridge too far, Devils Brigade, Bridge at Remagen, The Dirty Dozen, Battle of the Bulge, Cross of Iron or a Man from Uncle replay. I do slip Luger into a 45 Shoulder holster occasionaly

Edmond , DCB shooting · 07-10-2002, 09:05 AM

"It has been a comforting companion on many a dark and stormy night..."

If you write a novel and it starts like that, I'll buy it, John!
Best regards

07-09-2002, 01:29 AM	#1
ronin User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina Posts: 50 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	CCW, a Luger? (Dumb question # 2) Sounds silly but i really want to know if any of you do carry a Luger. This will fade away certain doubts i have about the reliability and efectiveness of the Luger compared to more modern guns in the defensive role. Would any of you guys trust them so far as to bet your lifes on them? Next obvious question for an affirmative reply is what kind of holsters do you use for such a task. Thanks, 0-0

07-09-2002, 01:32 AM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	Ronin, this was brought up before and generally most people said they'd carry something else if given the chance. Not anything wrong with it, just newer guns designed years later. But I am also of the opinion that a gun that served through two world wars would work against a bad guy [img]mad.gif[/img] but if given the chance I'd grab a 1911A1 or my S&W 25-2 (a .45 revolver) or even better a shotgun! [img]wink.gif[/img] __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

07-09-2002, 12:56 PM	#6
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	My answer for the bump noise in the night gun is an all steel .45 ACP Colt Commander, personally converted for me to a true double-action by Lewis W. Seecamp in the mid 1970's... It has NEVER had a malfunction. I feed it pure hardball loads. I has been a comforting companion on many a dark and stormy night... (bet you guys are glad I don't write novels for a living!)... but the above statement is non-fiction. I love Lugers for their remarkable engineering and elegance of design, but my life I trust to this remarkable short Colt 1911A2. (No the A2 is not a mistake, it is my designation for this hybrid). [img]wink.gif[/img] __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

07-09-2002, 07:26 PM	#11
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	My Serious carry pieces are a Model 27 .357, H&K Compact 45 acp, then lastly the P.38 in 9mm of course. We have not CCW here (passed it but the NM supreme court deemed it "unconstitutional") Since no CCW, the size is not a big issue. This is usually when traveling in my truck around town. For light carry I drop a S&W Model 66 .357 snubbie into my back pocket or a PPK either 9mm Kurz or 7.65. This is usually around the house. When I go field testing in the desert, I alway drag along one of my AKs. Ya just never know!! I guess you get the impression I am always armed...you'd be right! Aint America great! <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" /> __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

07-09-2002, 09:13 PM	#12
wterrell User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,096 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I would not care to have any of my Lugers confiscated and booked as evidence. Policemen take joy in taking the evidence guns down to the range and running a few cases of bullets through them. And you may never see the firearm again, even if acquitted of any wrong-doing. No, they can have my S&W .44 mag for their fun shooting! <img src="graemlins/crying.gif" border="0" alt="[crying]" /> (Most of my 'carry' is in bear country.) __________________ Noli me vocare, ego te vocabo, wes --------------------

07-09-2002, 02:05 AM	#3
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Ronin, My gun of choice is my P-12/45 Para-Ordinance, .45 ACP, single action, with 12+1 rounds... Very small, all steel, reliable feeding, and accurate as all heck... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

07-09-2002, 08:35 AM	#4
tipoc User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Redwood City, Ca. Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	ccw a Luger? I tried it once with an artilery model. Walked around for a couple of weeks with it till one day a young woman giggled and said "You sure got a skinny thing mister." That was the end of that. In reality though I wouldn't for several reasons. 1. My Lugers are almost 100 years old, a lot of high pressure rounds have gone through them, I would not want something to give when I needed it most. I would want something more recently made. 2. The Luger is a full size service weapon and is a bit cumbersome for ccw, to me anyway. 3. The sights, modern pistols have much better sights. etc. Lugers are beautiful pieces of machining and pleasent to shoot and look at but by the 1920,s better pistols had come along. If I was transported back in time to 1940 I'd pick a Colt M1903 or 08, the Walther PP, PPK or P-38, Mauser Hsc, the great 1911A1, Browning Hi-Power, or the outstanding Radom. tipoc

07-09-2002, 10:45 AM	#5
ronin User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina Posts: 50 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	While i agree with you and personally would and do exactly the same, go for a modern piece in a smaller size, i was curious to find out if any of you would "bet the farm" on a Luger. Apparently not. That makes a ton of sense. But you never know... <img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" />

07-09-2002, 02:57 PM	#7
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 163 Times in 87 Posts	Ronin, if I were to bet the farm, it would be with a 1911, 45 ACP. I would not hesitate to use a Luger or P38 in good condition. I have found with the proper load each of the latter would do the job nicely. <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

07-09-2002, 03:47 PM	#8
kidvett User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Montreal, Quebec Posts: 584 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Ronin, LUGERS would, in my opinion, hold their own in todays assortment of defensive handguns. I do think however that there are much practical handguns to carry as defensive pieces... Working Law Enforcement, my service piece is a WALTHER P99 with WIN SXT 147gr JHP ammo. Various backups include PPK.s, 38 snubbies and a Beretta 25. My favorite OFF-DUTY piece is a GLOCK 19 with that same 147gr ammo. I do have other favorites: LWT Commander 45, S&W Magnums, etc To me, important aspects of carrying a handgun for self defense are: CONFIDENCE & COMFORT. Sure enough you have to select a good reliable handgun with effective ammunition. 9mm is not my first choice of a defensive caliber ( I prefer BIG BORES & MAGNUMS ) but with good ammo, it does the job. If I was to go in harms way I'd pick a 4 inch Model 29 with Silvertips....But as an everyday carry piece, being 5'8 & 165 pounds, I'm happy with my GLOCK 19 [img]wink.gif[/img] kidvett

07-09-2002, 06:06 PM	#9
ronin User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina Posts: 50 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Not wanting to make a poll on an off topic subject here but obviously you all have your other "beloved" and trusted ones. I'm a left dominant eye leftie that shoots mostly with right handed HK .40 USPs. I say mostly since i do so because guns are designed with righthanded people in mind. And carrying does require, IMHO, a lot of training. I've been a rightie all of my shooter's life but am now training myself to become ambidextrous, i switch my USP right carry with a left carry P7M13 every other day. This way i'm a 100% southpaw. This only to clear the off topic chit chat. So, no one will consider the Luger. I must confess i'm a tinsy bitsy dissapointed but glad that you guys keep an absolutely open mind when it comes to handguns. <img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" /> 0-0

07-09-2002, 06:17 PM	#10
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,670 Thanks: 769 Thanked 1,611 Times in 525 Posts	As I've indicated in another thread, I wouldn't feel badly about carrying a Luger - even a 7.65mm - if I had no other choice. However, my first preference is my 1927 Argentine Colt loaded with Black Talons or Golden Sabres. It's extremely reliable with anything I put in it... and accurate! If I go out at night, depending upon where I intend to go, I sometimes stick a Makarov in 9x18mm or a Tokarev in 9mm in the car. Both are dependable.

07-09-2002, 09:13 PM	#13
Heinz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Greenville SC Posts: 1,004 Thanks: 377 Thanked 410 Times in 180 Posts	I like the Luger, it is fairly small and compact BUT I think a dangerous piece to shove in the waistband. For "dark and stormy nights" I like the 45 long colt. I have a Alberti repro of the Remington single action and a 1878 double action Colt rebarreled and recylindered for smokeless. Sigle actions are pretty quick for the first two shots. And when wheel guns jam, you just thumb the hammer again. But, the Luger would definitely do. Also, like the 1911, it gets a lot of respect when it comes out as the mass psyche accepts it as a serious pistol. Heinz

07-09-2002, 09:20 PM	#14
wterrell User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,096 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Heinz, As a sidebar, isn't it amazing how the 1911 has influenced the psyche of mankind as to what a serious semi-auto should look like? __________________ Noli me vocare, ego te vocabo, wes --------------------

07-09-2002, 09:43 PM	#15
ronin User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina Posts: 50 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Heinz, You just reminded me of a scene in Band of Brothers were one of the G.I. shoots (and kills)himself accidentally with a Luger. Would anyone care to explain why did this happened or why is the gun labelled as extremely unsafe in that episode? Does the safety not usually work as advertised? 0-0

07-09-2002, 09:48 PM	#16
ronin User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina Posts: 50 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Doubs, Glad to hear that you like your model 1927. Is it a regular Colt (made in USA for us) or and argentinian manufacture? Have you had extensive work done on it to have it feed non-ball ammo? I have a Ballester Molina myself but i just like to keep it around, i rather shoot my HK Mark 23 or my P9S if i come across some .45 ammo. Ammo is terribly expensive nowadays. 0-0

07-09-2002, 09:49 PM	#17
wterrell User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,096 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	With a hammer gun, you can see that it is cocked. Only a fool would walk around with the hammer pulled back. With a Luger, the firing pin is almost always cocked with the safety on when a round is in the chamber. If the firing pin were as obvious as the hammer, it would be a bit disconcerting. __________________ Noli me vocare, ego te vocabo, wes --------------------

07-10-2002, 01:00 AM	#18
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,670 Thanks: 769 Thanked 1,611 Times in 525 Posts	[quote]Originally posted by ronin: <strong>Doubs, Glad to hear that you like your model 1927. Is it a regular Colt (made in USA for us) or and argentinian manufacture? Have you had extensive work done on it to have it feed non-ball ammo? 0-0</strong><hr></blockquote> Ronin, my 1927 was Argentine-made and issued to the National Maritime Police or your equivalent of the Coast Guard. It's all matching and even with a bore that is badly pitted, it's very accurate with both cast and jacketed bullets. The 1927's were "throated" (chamber mouth beveled and widened and polished) during manufacture and mine feeds anything just as I received it. I had it parkerized and the sights changed to fixed combat sights. While I had a new slide and ejector fit so I could use it for .41 AE, 9mm, .38 Super and .30 Mauser, in it's .45 configuration it's essentially as-issued with the exception of the sights. (I also have the barrel and recoil spring for .38/45, a wildcat that comes close to .357 Magnum velocities.) The original slide had the ejector slot widened because the 9mm ejector sits closer to the bore line than the .45 ejector. The 9mm ejector works with all of the cartridges. I also have two Navy issue 1927's and one that was converted to .22 LR for the police to use for practice. I've not fired any of them. The 1927 used to be one of the very best buys on our surplus market and could be had for less than $200. The word has finally gotten around that they are very high quality and now they typically go for more than $300.... usually much more. I know I like mine a lot.

07-10-2002, 01:25 AM	#19
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	I must admit I feel more like putting on the small PPK in a shoulder holster after a good JAmes Bond movie, the Model 29 in one after seeing a Dirty Harry movie. A Beretta after one of the Die Hard movies! A Luger or P.38 when watching Where Eagles Dare, Bridge too far, Devils Brigade, Bridge at Remagen, The Dirty Dozen, Battle of the Bulge, Cross of Iron or a Man from Uncle replay. I do slip Luger into a 45 Shoulder holster occasionaly __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

07-10-2002, 09:05 AM	#20
Edmond , DCB shooting User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: FRANCE Posts: 53 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	"It has been a comforting companion on many a dark and stormy night..." If you write a novel and it starts like that, I'll buy it, John! Best regards __________________ Shoot'in by DCB