K date Kriegsmarine - Page 3

MauserLugers · 01-19-2005, 04:19 PM

Hi John,
Good job -- that's the kind of stuff you have to look for. -- Bill

Frank · 01-19-2005, 04:40 PM

Bill, yup the "K" is a engraving machine job and the trigger plate "S" is too high.

The E/M looks similar to what I would have thought it should be. The eagle should be spaced closer to the "M" and the "M" looks too "thin" compared to those I have seen in photos. The eagle may be wrong too, but again my experence is just not there in the KM factory!!

MauserLugers · 01-19-2005, 04:46 PM

Hi Frank,
What about the Scriptic S by the serial number on the left receiver? -- Bill

Frank · 01-19-2005, 04:54 PM

Bill, I probably should have mentioned in the chamber "K", the right side of the "K" should have almost met the upright in a "V" form not with a touching little part. Yup the guy did get carried away with the "S" at the left side S/N. I knew that!!!!

So hawkeye, what else did I miss!!!

Heinz · 01-19-2005, 07:02 PM

The radius transition or flute at the front of the barrel shows roundin associated with buffing. I think the E/M on the side panel is actually too big, the serial number stamping and the numbers on the takedown lever and side plate are more sloppy in alignment that you would expect, not definitive but suspicious.

Is this supposed to be a matching holster?

Lugers down under · 01-19-2005, 07:27 PM

Yes Heinz,
It is supposed to be a complete matching rig!
Regards
LDU

MauserLugers · 01-19-2005, 07:28 PM

Hi Frank,
Just as well give the faker all the goods so his next batch will be harder to detect.

On all real K-Dates there is an indention on each side of the receiver to the side of where the barrel screws in. What these are and why they are there I do not know, but all real K-dates have them. When a K-Date is refinished they usually polish out these marks. In this case the KM Luger never did have them as that is not a K-Date receiver. There are no indentions on this receiver. ---- Bill

Heinz · 01-19-2005, 07:36 PM

Murray, take out that Borchardt and admire how neat it is while you get your wife something good.

Bill, they will probably cut the dents in with a dremer tool :-)

I think the biggest giveaway is the story. This dealer really knows what he is doing and only robs old ladies in Florida. And pay no attention to the serial number on the holster. That is not a serial number but a special holster number for the Bismark.

Jan C Still · 01-19-2005, 08:18 PM

KM K date, 0.1750, sn 2021

Jan C Still · 01-19-2005, 08:19 PM

Bill, Frank, Heinz, and John

Excellent, sharp eyed analysis of the questionable (fake) Mauser-KM-K date. It would be hard to get such a fake past you guys. As you folks have covered quite a bit. I will confine my remarks to the right receiver. (Note: it is serious business when helping a fellow member of this Forum evaluate a minty-rare Luger for sale at a price of $12,000.)

I have attached a photo of the right receiver of a proper First Variation K Date, serial number 1056 ( see page 17, Third Reich Lugers, also see page 21 and 25). Note the position and shape of the scriptic Ã¢??SÃ¢?Â, the details of the test proof (eagle) and the details of the two acceptance stamps (B90 S91). Compare these to the right receiver of the Luger in question, serial number 2021, KM 0.1750. The acceptance stamps on serial number 2021, are incorrect for the serial number. They should be Ã?? 37, Ã?? 37. Notice how well defined the acceptance stamps on sn 1056 are compared to those on 2021. The feathers on the test eagle proof (eagle) on sn 2021 are stubbier and thicker than those on sn 1056. Also, the scriptic S on serial number 2021 is scrunched and smaller than serial number 1056. Not only are the right receiver stamps on sn 2021 unlike luger sn 1056 but they are unlike the many K date lugers that I have examined over the years.(also, as previously pointed out Navy property number 0.1750 is listed as having serial number 2113 on page 162 of Axis Pistols)

In summary(on the right receiver of sn 2021), the shape and size of the S stamp, the type and definition of the acceptance stamps (B90 S91 verses Ã?? 37 Ã?? 37) and the feathers of the test proof are unlike serial number 1056 and also unlike any other K date that I have examined. This together with the observations of Bill, Frank, Heinz, and John and a few other anomalies yet to be mentioned suggests that this Luger is not a correct/proper K date much less a Navy K date. Jan

Click on the following links to see detailed information on K date Lugers.* Franks K Date pictures, S/N 3648. Weimar_Police
------------------------- http://www.gunboards.com/luger/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=335
* S/42 CODE-K DATE, sn1056 Jan C Still
------------------------- http://www.gunboards.com/luger/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=283

Ron Wood · 01-19-2005, 09:31 PM

Jan's photo beautifully illustrates the "K-Date Clip" (the "indentation" that Bill mentioned in his post).

If a Luger doesn't have it...it ain't a K-Date.

drbuster · 01-20-2005, 09:11 AM

What a great learning experience! After reading Bill's description of the "clip" or indenatation peculiar to "K" dates and seeing Ron Wood's excellent photo depiction, I rushed to my safe, examined my third variation "K" date and behold...the clips or indentations were actually there!! Never noticed that before. Thanks guys.

Edward Tinker · 01-20-2005, 09:24 AM

doc, I bet yours is a fake too, I have this old shooter I'll trade you to get it off of your hands!

Oh and these are K Dates, with ALL VARIATIONS from an advanced collector I know...

Ron Smith · 01-20-2005, 09:27 AM

Murray,
You can have the sun. I'll take the choppers.

Just for the record. I did'nt comment on the pistol, because I would'nt know a K date, from a pitted date.

Too many landmines in that field, to suit me.

Ron

Frank · 01-20-2005, 12:02 PM

Hey Ed, I'll bet I know the advanced collector!!

I wish it were me!!

drbuster · 01-21-2005, 09:09 AM

Ed, Maybe ALL "K" dates are fake!!!

Lugers down under · 01-24-2005, 05:05 PM

Hi Guys,
I have given John the sad news about his Kreigsmarine Luger.
Natually he is devastated. Here is his reply which you can see that he is asking for advice.

Murray,
> John and I have discussed the Luger while at work
> recently. It is terrible news, and it appears I have
> been taken to the cleaners.
> The guy I bought it from is Lee Jessen, here in
> Minnesota. His business card says, "Military Arms
> Collector". Can you ask the "experts" on the board if
> this is the "well known" forger in my state???
> Also, could you forward my e-mail address to
> these guys? I would love to hear from them, any and
> all comments would be greatly appreciated.
> My sincerest apologies for trying to sell to you
> a gun by all appearances appears to be a fake.
> Any chance this gun is a prototype, made before
> the "official" version of the Kriegsmarine was
> adopted?????? Thanks again, Murray, and any help you
> could get me from the experts would be greatly
> appreciated.
> What would you do Murray, if in my position?
> Would you contact this guy right away????
> He is now in Florida, spends winters down there,
> then comes back to Minnesota in a couple of months.
> I know you have been a collector for a long time,
> and I'm a rookie when it comes to all of this.
> What recourse do I have???? Lawsuit????
> Thanks again,
> John Footh

For those of you who can offer him any solace or advice, John has asked me to post his e-mail address which is: drjustice2001@yahoo.com

I would appreciate any help

Regards

Murray.

Navy · 01-24-2005, 05:51 PM

Murray,

You may wish to point out that he has legal recourse against a seller who knew or should have known that the gun was bad.

Have him contact his lawyer and threaten civil suit if a satisfactory settlement is not offered. Along with that, he should consider contacting the local criminal prosecutor as this may be a case of fraud.

That the seller advertises himself as an "Expert" would suggest that he knew or should have known the gun was not what it purported to be.

Again, the tuition at Luger U. can be very expensive.

Tom A.

Imperial Arms · 01-24-2005, 07:37 PM

Dear Mr. Footh & Murray.

Usually legal action can be expensive and time consuming, but instead you could firstly apply some 'heat' by obtaining a document from a Mauser K-Date expert clearly outlining what is wrong with the pistol. This could place Mr. Jessen on notice/attention that you are taking this matter very seriously and you are prepared to ruin his reputation by announcing his wrong-doing against you on various forums and publications. If he is prepared to refund your money in full and correct this matter, he might earn himself a bonus point. In some cases, it is beneficial to give a dealer an opportunity to resolve a 'mistake' because he may not have known all the exact details of a specific Luger such as a KM K-Date Luger. In other cases, dealers do not give a damn about their reputation or integrity and continue to sell bad merchandise which can lead to ugly situations.

I hope that you can resolve this matter with uunnecessary headaches.

Good luck,
Albert

Jan C Still · 06-30-2005, 04:23 PM

Aother attempt was made to sell this same fake K date Navy (sn 2021, 0.1750) to another collector. This seller is also reported to be from Minnesota. It is my understanding that the fake information was conveyed to the seller at the first attempt to sell. It is interesting that the two matching mags appear to have been slightly altered in the area of the S marking between sale attempts. Link below:
Jan

K Date Navy Luger: opinions please Tom Whiteman http://www.gunboards.com/luger/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5076

01-19-2005, 07:27 PM	#46
Lugers down under User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Great Barrier Island, New Zealand Posts: 228 Thanks: 0 Thanked 4 Times in 2 Posts	Yes Heinz, It is supposed to be a complete matching rig! Regards LDU __________________ Lugers down under

01-19-2005, 08:18 PM	#49
Jan C Still User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Box 240188, Douglas, Alaska, 99824 Posts: 463 Thanks: 0 Thanked 52 Times in 32 Posts	KM K date, 0.1750, sn 2021 Attached Thumbnails

01-19-2005, 08:19 PM	#50
Jan C Still User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Box 240188, Douglas, Alaska, 99824 Posts: 463 Thanks: 0 Thanked 52 Times in 32 Posts	Bill, Frank, Heinz, and John Excellent, sharp eyed analysis of the questionable (fake) Mauser-KM-K date. It would be hard to get such a fake past you guys. As you folks have covered quite a bit. I will confine my remarks to the right receiver. (Note: it is serious business when helping a fellow member of this Forum evaluate a minty-rare Luger for sale at a price of $12,000.) I have attached a photo of the right receiver of a proper First Variation K Date, serial number 1056 ( see page 17, Third Reich Lugers, also see page 21 and 25). Note the position and shape of the scriptic Ã¢??SÃ¢?Â, the details of the test proof (eagle) and the details of the two acceptance stamps (B90 S91). Compare these to the right receiver of the Luger in question, serial number 2021, KM 0.1750. The acceptance stamps on serial number 2021, are incorrect for the serial number. They should be Ã?? 37, Ã?? 37. Notice how well defined the acceptance stamps on sn 1056 are compared to those on 2021. The feathers on the test eagle proof (eagle) on sn 2021 are stubbier and thicker than those on sn 1056. Also, the scriptic S on serial number 2021 is scrunched and smaller than serial number 1056. Not only are the right receiver stamps on sn 2021 unlike luger sn 1056 but they are unlike the many K date lugers that I have examined over the years.(also, as previously pointed out Navy property number 0.1750 is listed as having serial number 2113 on page 162 of Axis Pistols) In summary(on the right receiver of sn 2021), the shape and size of the S stamp, the type and definition of the acceptance stamps (B90 S91 verses Ã?? 37 Ã?? 37) and the feathers of the test proof are unlike serial number 1056 and also unlike any other K date that I have examined. This together with the observations of Bill, Frank, Heinz, and John and a few other anomalies yet to be mentioned suggests that this Luger is not a correct/proper K date much less a Navy K date. Jan Click on the following links to see detailed information on K date Lugers.* Franks K Date pictures, S/N 3648. Weimar_Police ------------------------- http://www.gunboards.com/luger/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=335 * S/42 CODE-K DATE, sn1056 Jan C Still ------------------------- http://www.gunboards.com/luger/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=283 Attached Thumbnails

01-19-2005, 09:31 PM	#51
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	Jan's photo beautifully illustrates the "K-Date Clip" (the "indentation" that Bill mentioned in his post). If a Luger doesn't have it...it ain't a K-Date. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

01-20-2005, 09:27 AM	#54
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Murray, You can have the sun. I'll take the choppers. Just for the record. I did'nt comment on the pistol, because I would'nt know a K date, from a pitted date. Too many landmines in that field, to suit me. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

01-19-2005, 04:19 PM	#41
MauserLugers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Philipsburg, Montana 59858 Posts: 250 Thanks: 0 Thanked 8 Times in 1 Post	Hi John, Good job -- that's the kind of stuff you have to look for. -- Bill

01-19-2005, 04:40 PM	#42
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 163 Times in 87 Posts	Bill, yup the "K" is a engraving machine job and the trigger plate "S" is too high. The E/M looks similar to what I would have thought it should be. The eagle should be spaced closer to the "M" and the "M" looks too "thin" compared to those I have seen in photos. The eagle may be wrong too, but again my experence is just not there in the KM factory!!

01-19-2005, 04:46 PM	#43
MauserLugers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Philipsburg, Montana 59858 Posts: 250 Thanks: 0 Thanked 8 Times in 1 Post	Hi Frank, What about the Scriptic S by the serial number on the left receiver? -- Bill

01-19-2005, 04:54 PM	#44
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 163 Times in 87 Posts	Bill, I probably should have mentioned in the chamber "K", the right side of the "K" should have almost met the upright in a "V" form not with a touching little part. Yup the guy did get carried away with the "S" at the left side S/N. I knew that!!!! So hawkeye, what else did I miss!!!

01-19-2005, 07:02 PM	#45
Heinz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Greenville SC Posts: 1,004 Thanks: 377 Thanked 410 Times in 180 Posts	The radius transition or flute at the front of the barrel shows roundin associated with buffing. I think the E/M on the side panel is actually too big, the serial number stamping and the numbers on the takedown lever and side plate are more sloppy in alignment that you would expect, not definitive but suspicious. Is this supposed to be a matching holster?

01-19-2005, 07:28 PM	#47
MauserLugers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Philipsburg, Montana 59858 Posts: 250 Thanks: 0 Thanked 8 Times in 1 Post	Hi Frank, Just as well give the faker all the goods so his next batch will be harder to detect. On all real K-Dates there is an indention on each side of the receiver to the side of where the barrel screws in. What these are and why they are there I do not know, but all real K-dates have them. When a K-Date is refinished they usually polish out these marks. In this case the KM Luger never did have them as that is not a K-Date receiver. There are no indentions on this receiver. ---- Bill

01-19-2005, 07:36 PM	#48
Heinz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Greenville SC Posts: 1,004 Thanks: 377 Thanked 410 Times in 180 Posts	Murray, take out that Borchardt and admire how neat it is while you get your wife something good. Bill, they will probably cut the dents in with a dremer tool :-) I think the biggest giveaway is the story. This dealer really knows what he is doing and only robs old ladies in Florida. And pay no attention to the serial number on the holster. That is not a serial number but a special holster number for the Bismark.

01-20-2005, 09:11 AM	#52
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	What a great learning experience! After reading Bill's description of the "clip" or indenatation peculiar to "K" dates and seeing Ron Wood's excellent photo depiction, I rushed to my safe, examined my third variation "K" date and behold...the clips or indentations were actually there!! Never noticed that before. Thanks guys.

01-20-2005, 09:24 AM	#53
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	doc, I bet yours is a fake too, I have this old shooter I'll trade you to get it off of your hands! Oh and these are K Dates, with ALL VARIATIONS from an advanced collector I know...

01-20-2005, 12:02 PM	#55
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 163 Times in 87 Posts	Hey Ed, I'll bet I know the advanced collector!! I wish it were me!!

01-21-2005, 09:09 AM	#56
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Ed, Maybe ALL "K" dates are fake!!!

01-24-2005, 05:05 PM	#57
Lugers down under User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Great Barrier Island, New Zealand Posts: 228 Thanks: 0 Thanked 4 Times in 2 Posts	Hi Guys, I have given John the sad news about his Kreigsmarine Luger. Natually he is devastated. Here is his reply which you can see that he is asking for advice. Murray, > John and I have discussed the Luger while at work > recently. It is terrible news, and it appears I have > been taken to the cleaners. > The guy I bought it from is Lee Jessen, here in > Minnesota. His business card says, "Military Arms > Collector". Can you ask the "experts" on the board if > this is the "well known" forger in my state??? > Also, could you forward my e-mail address to > these guys? I would love to hear from them, any and > all comments would be greatly appreciated. > My sincerest apologies for trying to sell to you > a gun by all appearances appears to be a fake. > Any chance this gun is a prototype, made before > the "official" version of the Kriegsmarine was > adopted?????? Thanks again, Murray, and any help you > could get me from the experts would be greatly > appreciated. > What would you do Murray, if in my position? > Would you contact this guy right away???? > He is now in Florida, spends winters down there, > then comes back to Minnesota in a couple of months. > I know you have been a collector for a long time, > and I'm a rookie when it comes to all of this. > What recourse do I have???? Lawsuit???? > Thanks again, > John Footh For those of you who can offer him any solace or advice, John has asked me to post his e-mail address which is: drjustice2001@yahoo.com I would appreciate any help Regards Murray. __________________ Lugers down under

01-24-2005, 05:51 PM	#58
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Murray, You may wish to point out that he has legal recourse against a seller who knew or should have known that the gun was bad. Have him contact his lawyer and threaten civil suit if a satisfactory settlement is not offered. Along with that, he should consider contacting the local criminal prosecutor as this may be a case of fraud. That the seller advertises himself as an "Expert" would suggest that he knew or should have known the gun was not what it purported to be. Again, the tuition at Luger U. can be very expensive. Tom A.

01-24-2005, 07:37 PM	#59
Imperial Arms Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Malta, EU Posts: 579 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts	Dear Mr. Footh & Murray. Usually legal action can be expensive and time consuming, but instead you could firstly apply some 'heat' by obtaining a document from a Mauser K-Date expert clearly outlining what is wrong with the pistol. This could place Mr. Jessen on notice/attention that you are taking this matter very seriously and you are prepared to ruin his reputation by announcing his wrong-doing against you on various forums and publications. If he is prepared to refund your money in full and correct this matter, he might earn himself a bonus point. In some cases, it is beneficial to give a dealer an opportunity to resolve a 'mistake' because he may not have known all the exact details of a specific Luger such as a KM K-Date Luger. In other cases, dealers do not give a damn about their reputation or integrity and continue to sell bad merchandise which can lead to ugly situations. I hope that you can resolve this matter with uunnecessary headaches. Good luck, Albert

06-30-2005, 04:23 PM	#60
Jan C Still User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Box 240188, Douglas, Alaska, 99824 Posts: 463 Thanks: 0 Thanked 52 Times in 32 Posts	Aother attempt was made to sell this same fake K date Navy (sn 2021, 0.1750) to another collector. This seller is also reported to be from Minnesota. It is my understanding that the fake information was conveyed to the seller at the first attempt to sell. It is interesting that the two matching mags appear to have been slightly altered in the area of the S marking between sale attempts. Link below: Jan K Date Navy Luger: opinions please Tom Whiteman http://www.gunboards.com/luger/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5076