Very Bad News - Page 3

tracyp · 07-07-2003, 11:50 AM

John,

It was compared to my 1906 Commercial Navy. I don't know if there's a difference between it and 1908 or 1914 models. Tom A. could probably provide a few examples.

Tracy

John Sabato · 07-07-2003, 12:28 PM

I would say that there is a pretty obvious difference in the manufacture of the toggle knobs...

These sights should make great reproduction Navy shooters!

Pete Ebbink · 07-07-2003, 12:37 PM

Okay, I ran the original German e-Bay ad text through Babel-Fish...(since I lack sufficient gray matter...).

Does it seem that the maker is saying he copied this new toggle from a 1970's Mauser Navy toggle...? If yes, maybe that's why we are seeing the machining differences and that they are not nearly close enough to the historical toggles...(?)...

Here is the "translation"... :

" Here is an offer for collecting tanks, dealers and Buechsenmacher! Hintergelenk for navy Luger 1904 with 200 meters visor. Top quality, everything compound from the full manufactured, no high quality casting, not from several parts, not soldered or welded. Manufactured from a block high-quality tool steel! Gas-carburized and at the cam inductively. Even mouse conquering village was not to be manufactured in the 70's in a the position this part from the full! One used the rather large tolerances for the anniversary Luger at that time pistols of close tolerance castings had. Here it concerns quality as before 100 years! The steel quality is even still high-quality than with the original! Exact copy of the original! Series fits into each Luger, also into the late 08! Ideally to completing or to changes of a normal Luger on navy model! Special wishes possible. Inquire please! Laws please consider! "

Here is the e-Bay posted German text :

" Hier ist ein Angebot fÃ?Â¼r Sammler, HÃ?Â¤ndler und BÃ?Â¼chsenmacher ! Hintergelenk fÃ?Â¼r Marine-Luger 1904 mit 200 Meter Visier. Top QualitÃ?Â¤t, alles aus dem vollen gefertigt, kein Feinguss, nicht aus mehreren Teilen zusammengesetzt,nicht gelÃ?Â¶tet oder geschweisst. Gefertigt aus einem Block hochwertigem Werkzeugstahl ! OberflÃ?Â¤chengehÃ?Â¤rtet und an der Steuerkurve InduktivgehÃ?Â¤rtet. Selbst Mauser-Oberndorf war in den 70er Jahren nicht in der Lage dieses Teil aus dem vollen zu fertigen ! Man verwendete fÃ?Â¼r die damaligen JubilÃ?Â¤ums-Luger Pistolen Feingussteile die ziemlich groÃ??e Toleranzen hatten. Hier handelt es sich um QualitÃ?Â¤t wie vor 100 Jahren ! Die StahlqualitÃ?Â¤t ist sogar noch hochwertiger als beim Original ! Genaue Kopie vom Original ! Passt in jede Luger,auch in die spÃ?Â¤te 08 Serie ! Ideal zum Komplettieren oder zum Umbauen einer normalen Luger auf Marine Modell ! SonderwÃ?Â¼nsche mÃ?Â¶glich. Bitte anfragen! Gesetzliche Vorschriften bitte beachten ! "

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

John Sabato · 07-07-2003, 12:39 PM

Here is a photo of Tom A's genuine 1904 Navy Toggle from the right side...(I don't have a clear photo of the left side) and there's still quite a bit of difference from the repro sight in my post above...

So these repro sights 'resemble' the original but could not be mistaken from an original in their current form... (and that's a GOOD THING)

Ron Wood · 07-07-2003, 04:15 PM

A genuine 1904 Navy differs substantially from later Navy models, i.e. the 90 degree checkering and toggle lock. If anyone reproduces these, Katy bar the door!

Big Norm · 07-08-2003, 10:50 PM

To all,
I am beginning to feel better. I wish that we could somehow keep an abreviated write-up with pictures of the great detective work that has been done here for future reference.

I gotta go now. I have six model 1914's to put back together without having a couple of mis-matches.
Big Norm

ViggoG · 07-09-2003, 02:29 AM

My Compliments to tracyp
Your Photograph has also clearly shown the impact and wear point on the Toggle that disclose the undeniable mark brought about by fireing the weapon.
This is a dead giveaway on a fired Luger and there is no way to hide it.
>

Viggo G

Lugerdoc · 07-09-2003, 09:51 AM

Tom A. & John S, I couldn't help but notice the fireblued finish of the toggle lock part attached to the frame of the 04 Navy. This is the same finish that I had applied to my repros of this part, to distinguish them from the originals with a rust blued finish. Is it possisble that this part of your luger is a replacement or is it just the lighting on your photo. TH

John Sabato · 07-09-2003, 11:21 AM

Tom Heller (Lugerdoc)

The photo of the 1904 Navy Toggle Lock has much flash reflection and I did some digital magic to help clarify the knurling for comparison with the repro sight... I am sure that the "magic" also modified the appearance of Tom's Toggle Lock somewhat and modified the color tones somewhat...

I doubt that with the keen nose that Tom has for genuine collector's items (combined with what I know he paid for this magnificent Navy Luger)that Tom wouldn't have gambled on the part in question being other than genuine...

MauserLugers · 07-09-2003, 07:18 PM

I can assure you that when the 1916 Navy comes out with these production toggles they will have appropiate wear on them and will not be looking brand new. If it was only that easy! I really do not think you realize just how good some of these are .. and will be. Three years ago one was in Kansas City that fooled everyone. Since then they have gotten better. The secret is the stepped barrel and how it was reemed, the fit and assembly of the underside of the rear toggle, the large hole on the rear connecting pin on the receiver, plus the stamping and blue. The blue and especially the straw is really good as they usually use a 1920 commercial so it has the original straw. -- All this rambling so I'll get back to the point, they won't be mint, or new, and they'll have wear and will look real unless you know exactly how to detect them you will get stung. -- Bill

Navy · 07-09-2003, 08:33 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Lugerdoc:
Tom A. & John S, I couldn't help but notice the fireblued finish of the toggle lock part attached to the frame of the 04 Navy. This is the same finish that I had applied to my repros of this part, to distinguish them from the originals with a rust blued finish. Is it possisble that this part of your luger is a replacement or is it just the lighting on your photo. TH<hr /></blockquote>All,
The photos were taken by forum member and good friend Albert Beliard when this pistol was in the collection of it's previous owner, a very well known and highly respected collector. The fire blue is a result of the photography only (I just pulled it off the shelf to do a double check,)
FWIW, I had been after an '04 for about 15 years and this one in particular, for about 10 years before I was in a position to move on it. In the process, I did a lot of looking, talking, listening and reading. In the process, I determined that during the early 1970's, there was a guy who was making '04's. He did such a beautiful job that at least one of his pieces was in Jan's book, which Jan states in several places. I have acquired through an anonymous benefactor, several pictures of these bogus '04's while being manufactured, including the SN, "smoke" paterns for toggle checkering, etc, etc. I even have the names of the individuals (one now deceased) for whom these pieces were made.
As I have often said, if you are going to play with the big boys, you have to do your homework, I did and was 100% confident that I could trust my judgment when I made that five figure purchase that cost more than the first house I owned.

Tom A.

G.T. · 07-15-2003, 09:55 AM

Hi Tom! Your mail box is full! So my email address is: gctomeks@msn.com Thanks, till...later...GT

07-07-2003, 12:28 PM	#42
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	I would say that there is a pretty obvious difference in the manufacture of the toggle knobs... These sights should make great reproduction Navy shooters! __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

07-07-2003, 12:39 PM	#44
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Here is a photo of Tom A's genuine 1904 Navy Toggle from the right side...(I don't have a clear photo of the left side) and there's still quite a bit of difference from the repro sight in my post above... So these repro sights 'resemble' the original but could not be mistaken from an original in their current form... (and that's a GOOD THING) __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

07-07-2003, 04:15 PM	#45
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	A genuine 1904 Navy differs substantially from later Navy models, i.e. the 90 degree checkering and toggle lock. If anyone reproduces these, Katy bar the door! __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

07-09-2003, 09:51 AM	#48
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Tom A. & John S, I couldn't help but notice the fireblued finish of the toggle lock part attached to the frame of the 04 Navy. This is the same finish that I had applied to my repros of this part, to distinguish them from the originals with a rust blued finish. Is it possisble that this part of your luger is a replacement or is it just the lighting on your photo. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

07-09-2003, 11:21 AM	#49
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Tom Heller (Lugerdoc) The photo of the 1904 Navy Toggle Lock has much flash reflection and I did some digital magic to help clarify the knurling for comparison with the repro sight... I am sure that the "magic" also modified the appearance of Tom's Toggle Lock somewhat and modified the color tones somewhat... I doubt that with the keen nose that Tom has for genuine collector's items (combined with what I know he paid for this magnificent Navy Luger)that Tom wouldn't have gambled on the part in question being other than genuine... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

07-07-2003, 11:50 AM	#41
tracyp User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Peoples Republic of Kalifornia Posts: 391 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	John, It was compared to my 1906 Commercial Navy. I don't know if there's a difference between it and 1908 or 1914 models. Tom A. could probably provide a few examples. Tracy

07-07-2003, 12:37 PM	#43
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Okay, I ran the original German e-Bay ad text through Babel-Fish...(since I lack sufficient gray matter...). Does it seem that the maker is saying he copied this new toggle from a 1970's Mauser Navy toggle...? If yes, maybe that's why we are seeing the machining differences and that they are not nearly close enough to the historical toggles...(?)... Here is the "translation"... : " Here is an offer for collecting tanks, dealers and Buechsenmacher! Hintergelenk for navy Luger 1904 with 200 meters visor. Top quality, everything compound from the full manufactured, no high quality casting, not from several parts, not soldered or welded. Manufactured from a block high-quality tool steel! Gas-carburized and at the cam inductively. Even mouse conquering village was not to be manufactured in the 70's in a the position this part from the full! One used the rather large tolerances for the anniversary Luger at that time pistols of close tolerance castings had. Here it concerns quality as before 100 years! The steel quality is even still high-quality than with the original! Exact copy of the original! Series fits into each Luger, also into the late 08! Ideally to completing or to changes of a normal Luger on navy model! Special wishes possible. Inquire please! Laws please consider! " Here is the e-Bay posted German text : " Hier ist ein Angebot fÃ?Â¼r Sammler, HÃ?Â¤ndler und BÃ?Â¼chsenmacher ! Hintergelenk fÃ?Â¼r Marine-Luger 1904 mit 200 Meter Visier. Top QualitÃ?Â¤t, alles aus dem vollen gefertigt, kein Feinguss, nicht aus mehreren Teilen zusammengesetzt,nicht gelÃ?Â¶tet oder geschweisst. Gefertigt aus einem Block hochwertigem Werkzeugstahl ! OberflÃ?Â¤chengehÃ?Â¤rtet und an der Steuerkurve InduktivgehÃ?Â¤rtet. Selbst Mauser-Oberndorf war in den 70er Jahren nicht in der Lage dieses Teil aus dem vollen zu fertigen ! Man verwendete fÃ?Â¼r die damaligen JubilÃ?Â¤ums-Luger Pistolen Feingussteile die ziemlich groÃ??e Toleranzen hatten. Hier handelt es sich um QualitÃ?Â¤t wie vor 100 Jahren ! Die StahlqualitÃ?Â¤t ist sogar noch hochwertiger als beim Original ! Genaue Kopie vom Original ! Passt in jede Luger,auch in die spÃ?Â¤te 08 Serie ! Ideal zum Komplettieren oder zum Umbauen einer normalen Luger auf Marine Modell ! SonderwÃ?Â¼nsche mÃ?Â¶glich. Bitte anfragen! Gesetzliche Vorschriften bitte beachten ! " Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

07-08-2003, 10:50 PM	#46
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	To all, I am beginning to feel better. I wish that we could somehow keep an abreviated write-up with pictures of the great detective work that has been done here for future reference. I gotta go now. I have six model 1914's to put back together without having a couple of mis-matches. Big Norm

07-09-2003, 02:29 AM	#47
ViggoG RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: South Side Virginia Posts: 534 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	My Compliments to tracyp Your Photograph has also clearly shown the impact and wear point on the Toggle that disclose the undeniable mark brought about by fireing the weapon. This is a dead giveaway on a fired Luger and there is no way to hide it. > Viggo G

07-09-2003, 07:18 PM	#50
MauserLugers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Philipsburg, Montana 59858 Posts: 250 Thanks: 0 Thanked 8 Times in 1 Post	I can assure you that when the 1916 Navy comes out with these production toggles they will have appropiate wear on them and will not be looking brand new. If it was only that easy! I really do not think you realize just how good some of these are .. and will be. Three years ago one was in Kansas City that fooled everyone. Since then they have gotten better. The secret is the stepped barrel and how it was reemed, the fit and assembly of the underside of the rear toggle, the large hole on the rear connecting pin on the receiver, plus the stamping and blue. The blue and especially the straw is really good as they usually use a 1920 commercial so it has the original straw. -- All this rambling so I'll get back to the point, they won't be mint, or new, and they'll have wear and will look real unless you know exactly how to detect them you will get stung. -- Bill

07-09-2003, 08:33 PM	#51
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Lugerdoc: <strong>Tom A. & John S, I couldn't help but notice the fireblued finish of the toggle lock part attached to the frame of the 04 Navy. This is the same finish that I had applied to my repros of this part, to distinguish them from the originals with a rust blued finish. Is it possisble that this part of your luger is a replacement or is it just the lighting on your photo. TH</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">All, The photos were taken by forum member and good friend Albert Beliard when this pistol was in the collection of it's previous owner, a very well known and highly respected collector. The fire blue is a result of the photography only (I just pulled it off the shelf to do a double check,) FWIW, I had been after an '04 for about 15 years and this one in particular, for about 10 years before I was in a position to move on it. In the process, I did a lot of looking, talking, listening and reading. In the process, I determined that during the early 1970's, there was a guy who was making '04's. He did such a beautiful job that at least one of his pieces was in Jan's book, which Jan states in several places. I have acquired through an anonymous benefactor, several pictures of these bogus '04's while being manufactured, including the SN, "smoke" paterns for toggle checkering, etc, etc. I even have the names of the individuals (one now deceased) for whom these pieces were made. As I have often said, if you are going to play with the big boys, you have to do your homework, I did and was 100% confident that I could trust my judgment when I made that five figure purchase that cost more than the first house I owned. Tom A.

07-15-2003, 09:55 AM	#52
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,485 Thanks: 1,283 Thanked 3,581 Times in 989 Posts	Hi Tom! Your mail box is full! So my email address is: gctomeks@msn.com Thanks, till...later...GT